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Old 09-02-2012, 11:37 AM   #1
cityboy
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Should Adirondacks have a different set of Bear Hunting Regulations?

I think everyone can agree that as a region the Adirondacks are entirely different from the rest of NYS. My question is should Statewide Bear Hunting rules also apply to the Adirondacks or are some modifications necessary?

The Bear Kill totals for the 2011 Bear season in the Adirondacks was DRASTICALLY down from not only 2010 but historical 5 and 10 year averages too.
This was especially noticeable for the early season where only 70 bears were taken as opposed to the usual 250+.

According to DEC 70% of NYS bear population resides in the Adirondacks and yet the dacks had the lowest total kill for any region. Just a fluke?
DEC says yes. Here is their explanation:

"Bear harvest rates in the Adirondacks typically drop in the early season during years of abundant soft mast (cherries, raspberries and apples)"
"This past season provided abundant soft mast, particularly raspberries and blackberries in September and October."

I guess we will see if this is true since its been a terrible year for berries and apples this year. Based on this there should be a large jump in bears taken this fall.

My guess is that the real reason is the change in feeding rules. It seems to me that most bears are shot during deer season and are incidental.
This would explain why the other two regions had record kills despite a 40% reduction for the Adirondacks. Almost half of bears killed in the Adirondacks are during the early season and hence my original question. Seems to me that feeding should be allowed in the Adirondacks up till regular deer season. What do you think?
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Old 09-02-2012, 01:15 PM   #2
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Allow baiting? Seems that in long run, bear population is fairly stable as is. Baiting would definitely result in larger harvest, perhaps too large. I think bear biologists know best and should set regulations, not populus. Same for deer and antler restrictions.
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Old 09-02-2012, 07:51 PM   #3
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Allow baiting? Seems that in long run, bear population is fairly stable as is. Baiting would definitely result in larger harvest, perhaps too large. I think bear biologists know best and should set regulations, not populus. Same for deer and antler restrictions.
Baiting was allowed up to 9 days before the season opening day until last year. The average person is not going to just walk upon a bear durring hunting season. I have hunted the Adirondacks for 50 years and only seen 4 bears durring hunting season.
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Old 09-03-2012, 07:50 AM   #4
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Old Rivers, as a former State employee I know that sometimes the people with the knowledge don't make the rules. Sometimes these decisions come from the top and have other motives driving them.

The stated reason for the new rule change is to reduce human-bear conflict. I have not found a site listing bear incidents in NY but in talking with people around the central Adirondacks it appears that conficts are rising and some have stated it is as bad as they can recall.

DEC also states that hunting is the primary tool to control bear populations. The less bears killed mean a higher population and an increase in the possibility of trouble.

I have since found the historical bear kill totals going back 30 years and last years low totals were not as much as an outlier as I thought. This years kill should tell us something. If it exceeds the 500 mark tyipical of the Adirondacks than the law change had no impact. Time will tell.
I can confirm adkman12986 statement that it is extremely hard to get a bear without an attractant.
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Old 09-03-2012, 09:34 AM   #5
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Baiting was allowed up to 9 days before the season opening day until last year. The average person is not going to just walk upon a bear durring hunting season. I have hunted the Adirondacks for 50 years and only seen 4 bears durring hunting season.
That's why they call it "Hunting"

Hunt-ing: Noun The act of conducting a search for something.

Personally I would like to see a large population of bears in the Adirondacks. Especially if it would deter more people from coming here. That would also cut down on bear-human encounters.

What's working out west is closing down trails with a lot of bear activity to humans.
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Old 09-05-2012, 02:56 PM   #6
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That's why they call it "Hunting"

Hunt-ing: Noun The act of conducting a search for something.

What's working out west is closing down trails with a lot of bear activity to humans.
Some quotes from the following article: http://blog.syracuse.com/outdoors/2011/03/bears.html

“The most effective way to hunt bear in this state is to bait. I’d estimate some 85 to 90 percent of the bear killed in this state (are) taken (by preseason baiting).”

"Canada, Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont and New Jersey allow bear hunters to use bait or dogs, or both."

"Bears tend to roam, many in an area averaging 100 square miles. Finding one to shoot on any predictable basis without the use of bait or dogs is difficult"

"This state (NY) once allowed the use of dogs in the 1980s, but that was discontinued following a 1990 lawsuit filed against the DEC by the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals."
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Old 09-06-2012, 04:38 PM   #7
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OK, this makes a lot of sense! And studies have proved it to be more effective than what DEC has done changing the feeding law. Here is the quote.

"Some researchers, however, argue that setting up feeding stations for bears near populated areas can keep hungry animals from bothering people, especially in years where natural food sources are scarce."

Here is a link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48928561

Time will tell if the new law has any effect on total bear take in the Adirondacks. Based on my research this should be at least a better than average bear take in the early bear season and I'd expect over 250. Anything less will probably be because of the rule change.
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Old 09-06-2012, 05:28 PM   #8
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I don't think that just because something is effective it should be legal. At one time deerjacking was the a preffered method for hunting deer. It was very effective. Too much so which is why the it was the adirondack guides who pushed for legislation creating hunting seasons and outlawing certain practices such as deerjacking. The purpose of the regulations is not to make it easier for the hunter, but to ensure the species survivability which will allow hunting to continue for many years to come. Lastly, I don't think an arbitrary number for the annual take will be indicative of one single variable. Statistics is much more complex than that. Even if it were so, there may be a good reason for the State to attempt to reduce the take.
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Old 09-07-2012, 07:27 AM   #9
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DuctTape, the described feeding stations were not for hunting but were used to cut down on human-bear confrontations.
I can't wait for DEC to ticket someone for a bird feeder or trash cans. Why not just go the whole nine yards and ban the carrying of all food and throwing out of garbage.

By the way the Adirondacks did at one time have "Feeding Stations" they were known as dumps!
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Old 09-07-2012, 12:55 PM   #10
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I saw that. I was respondung specifically to the statement regarding huntung and baiting's effectiveness.

I would be careful with slippery slope arguments as they are usually considered logical fallacies and thus not valid arguments. Not always, hence the be careful.
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Old 09-07-2012, 12:59 PM   #11
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Sorry for the typos. I am using my phone.
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Old 09-07-2012, 01:47 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by redhawk View Post
That's why they call it "Hunting"

Hunt-ing: Noun The act of conducting a search for something.

Personally I would like to see a large population of bears in the Adirondacks. Especially if it would deter more people from coming here. That would also cut down on bear-human encounters.

What's working out west is closing down trails with a lot of bear activity to humans.
Absolutely right. To many people but unfortunatly state land can be used by everyone. Not just a select few.
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Old 09-07-2012, 03:14 PM   #13
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I can't wait for DEC to ticket someone for a bird feeder or trash cans.
There have been people fined in the OF area for both.
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Old 09-07-2012, 04:00 PM   #14
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There have been people fined in the OF area for both.
I didn't bother doing a search or anything, but are there DEC or local regulations for certain acceptable types of bird feeders and trash cans? Seriously.
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Old 09-07-2012, 06:14 PM   #15
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There have been people fined in the OF area for both.
Now we need someone or some organization to challenge it. If the society for the prevention of cruelty to animals was able to challenge and win about hunting bear with dogs in the 1980's this could be overturned too.
It's your backyard and your birdfeeder. The intent is to feed birds not attract a bear. Whats next, no scented candles allowed in the home? Do only animals have rights? This is getting a littlr crazy.
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:45 PM   #16
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I didn't bother doing a search or anything, but are there DEC or local regulations for certain acceptable types of bird feeders and trash cans? Seriously.
There is a town ordinance that states garbage cannot be put out before 6am on the day of your scheduled pickup. The main reason for this came because people who own a second home in OF are typically not here on garbage day and put their garbage on the curb on Sunday when they leave for the week. Invariably animals would get into the garbage and make a mess. In some cases the slobs would not pick up the mess when they came back the next week! I'm not sure if these people have been fined. Some I've talked with about this should be fined heavily since they do have a resource to get rid of the garbage but are to lazy to use.

I'm not sure of the circumstances but i do know the Forge Motel was fined for trash can that the bears could get at. Also the Village itself was warned about it's cans that are put along main street for the courtesy of tourism.
I venture a guess that they changed them before getting fined by the DEC.
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:00 PM   #17
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Now we need someone or some organization to challenge it. If the society for the prevention of cruelty to animals was able to challenge and win about hunting bear with dogs in the 1980's this could be overturned too.
It's your backyard and your birdfeeder. The intent is to feed birds not attract a bear. Whats next, no scented candles allowed in the home? Do only animals have rights? This is getting a littlr crazy.
Yeah! Lets kill all the bears along with all the other species we have eradicated. Why should they have any rights? And when the birds eat all our berries we can kill them too.

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Last edited by fvrwld; 09-07-2012 at 10:25 PM.. Reason: moved to the hunting/fishing section
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Old 09-08-2012, 04:43 AM   #18
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fvrwld, wild animals do have rights. They have the right to live in the woods not in someone's backyard in a hamlet or village. If it were not for hunting instilling the fear of humans you'd have a bear swimming in your pool and sunning itself on your back porch.
These laws make sense for a cabin in the woods not in a surburban environment.
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Old 09-08-2012, 07:51 AM   #19
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Before it was someones backyard it was? land that animals roamed freely governed by their rules, survival. Maybe we should send them to school so they better understand how to act in OUR world?
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Old 09-08-2012, 07:56 AM   #20
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Well I would like to add my 2 cents to this.

First off in the states mentioned for bear hunting like NH and ME baiting requires a permit on public lands. They are limited in number and most are gotten by Guides and Outfitters

Of the places mention especially ME and Canada have a heck of a lot more bear than we do. Baiting is simply a tool to help keep populations in check.

As are dogs and hunting with them. Bear dogs in NY are not needed. Neither is Baiting. We do not have bear population to justify those management tools.

As far a bear season goes I did not support the expansion of season. The reason the Dec did that was to keep the current population under control in the southern zones since that's were there's been higher than normal populations.

I also don't think we has a problem with bears on our trails. If you are worried about a Black Bear encounter in the ADK THEN YOU NEED TO STAY HOME CAUSE YOUR A DANGER TO YOUR SELF AND THOSE AROUND YOU.

Really bottom line is our bear biologist aren't doing a bad job of providing good bear hunting in this state. If you want a public land big woods baiting experience I hear Idaho is very good, just watch out for the grizzly's.

Bob
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