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Old 09-08-2012, 10:22 AM   #21
cityboy
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First off, I only use and a gun and padded seat cushion to hunt. I would not even be hunting bear if not for the camp break ins. I have no opinion either way as to the use of dogs and bait as a method of hunting. It is allowed in other states but is illegal in NY. And as it pertains to the use of dogs the law was changed by animal rights people not biologists. Furthermore chasing bears with dogs in NY is still LEGAL outside of the hunting season and there are no guns used.

The issue is "Feeding" of which Pre-baiting is classified under. In stopping the practice of Pre-baiting the new law also forbids all unintentional feeding. I again have no strong opinion on Pre-baiting, never done it and thought it was illegal anyway. No problem with me if it is outlawed UNLESS bear take is dramatically reduced well below historic ADK levels. It is still too early to determine this but it does concern me when bear guides and veteran bear hunters state that 85 to 90 percent of all bears in ADK are taken that way.

I do take exception when a law infringes my rights and is selectively enforced. A State law pertains to everyone not just those in the Adirondacks. A person in the Southern Tier should be subject to fine just like the person in Newcomb if they violate the law. Here is the wording of the new law that I object to:

"Incidental or indirect feeding" means using, placing, giving, exposing, depositing, distributing or scattering any material for a different purpose but which attracts one or more black bears. This includes storage of garbage or refuse and use and storage of birdseed in a manner that is accessible to black bears.

First of all it makes no distinction between indoor and outdoor. Second, by definition ANYTHING that has an odor and attracts a bear could be interpreted to be incidental or indirect feeding. Things like a bowl of fruit, a scented candle, a bar of soap, an air freshener (house or car), a barbeque grill, those citronella bug repellers, a cooler full of meat or even a compost pile. This law leaves too much to interpretation and how is this even enforcible? Wasn't DEC staff reduced?
Here is how I think they will enforce it. A bear breaks into your cabin or garage and you call DEC. They investigate and find something,anything, that can attract a bear and issue a written warning. If it happens again then you are fined. Maybe the real intent was to cut down on contacting DEC.
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Old 09-08-2012, 12:49 PM   #22
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I believe in rights for everyone!
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Old 09-08-2012, 12:50 PM   #23
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fvrwld, wild animals do have rights. They have the right to live in the woods not in someone's backyard in a hamlet or village. If it were not for hunting instilling the fear of humans you'd have a bear swimming in your pool and sunning itself on your back porch.
These laws make sense for a cabin in the woods not in a surburban environment.
Black bears naturally have a fear of humans. It is when bears can easily obtain food near the presence of humans (i.e. food hanging in a lean-to or a bird feeder) that they determine the reward of being in close proximity of humans outweighs the risk of being in close proximityof humans. The bear then becomes habituated to humans. Sadly, I believe that there is only one cure for that so limiting the problem lies in prevention. Once a bear is hunted he doesn't learn to fear anything...he's dead.

I'm not anti-hunting btw...I hunt (although not in a few years simply due to a rockclimbing addiction). Nor do I have an opinion on bear baiting but the restrictions on bird feeders and non-bearproof garbage containers near human structures is common sense to me even with my limited ecology education.
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Old 09-08-2012, 12:59 PM   #24
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I do take exception when a law infringes my rights and is selectively enforced. A State law pertains to everyone not just those in the Adirondacks. A person in the Southern Tier should be subject to fine just like the person in Newcomb if they violate the law.
But...in post #18 you said...

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These laws make sense for a cabin in the woods not in a surburban environment.
...just sayin'
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Old 09-08-2012, 01:54 PM   #25
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But...in post #18 you said...



...just sayin'
But the name of this thread is Should Adirondacks have a different set of rules. I'm just saying that if the new law applies Statewide it should be enforced Statewide. It appears that the ADK is getting special attention.

I just noticed that my wife has a bird feeder on our back porch in Saratoga. If jail time was involved I'd turn her in just for the peace and quiet.
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Old 09-08-2012, 03:56 PM   #26
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Once a bear is hunted he doesn't learn to fear anything...he's dead.

.
I think a bear knows when he is being hunted and passes that fear down to its progeny. Just opinion.
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Old 09-08-2012, 03:58 PM   #27
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fvrwld, Great signature quote!
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Old 09-09-2012, 08:02 AM   #28
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Black bears naturally have a fear of humans. Once a bear is hunted he doesn't learn to fear anything...he's dead.
fvrwld, bears are no different from deer and turkey. I've ridden my bike past flocks of turkey and they did not run. Same with deer. Once the hunting season starts they react quite differently. At one time we were the hunted.

As for the dead comment I think you were joking. If not I can assure you that
not all animals that are shot at are killed. If you hunt in the Southern Tier you would think a war was going on. Thank god most rifles hold only 5 shots.
I think some hunters feel they are obligated to to empty their clip at any deer they see.
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Old 09-09-2012, 11:06 AM   #29
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Not so long ago, town dumps acted as a baiting source and hunters would surround the dumps. Lots of bears were harvested that way and I don't recall the harvest data, but I would venture to say that majority of bears were harvested within 1/2 mile of active dumps. Now that NY has transfer stations, bears are more scattered across adirondacks and "Hunting" them is much more challenging.
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Old 09-09-2012, 08:30 PM   #30
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It's a delicate balance. Hunting is like unatural selection and it breeds out those bears that are most curious, which seems to be a key trait in bears.

My vote:

Artificial lures illegal
Planting a berry bush on your land, legal

On a personal note I don't like to hunt bear because I do like them and secondly they are a super pain in the butt to drag out. I don't particularly care for the meat either and I sure as heck aren't going to drag it out to give it to someone else to eat. I do get the overpopulation issue but that seems more a problem for New Jersey than the adirondacks.
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Old 09-11-2012, 05:11 AM   #31
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Pumpkin QAAD, I enjoy seeing bears too, just not in my camp. As I already stated if it were not for the breakins I would not hunt them either. I heard the meat is not too tasty and since I hunt solo I'm not looking forward to dragging a 300lb bear.

I'm not in favor of eradicating all bears because we will need them to help with the wild pigs in a few years. Speaking of pigs, just heard that a bear killed a Potbellied pig in Long Lake. It was an outdoor pet and the bear came up on porch and ripped the roof off the pig condo. I'm sure though, some here would blame the pig for smelling like bacon.
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Old 09-11-2012, 08:18 AM   #32
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Actually some might blame the owners of the pig for leaving it out where a bear could get it. Pretty much the same as leaving pork chops out at a camp.
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Old 09-11-2012, 09:47 AM   #33
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In an ideal world, it would be nice to see the animals left alone so nature can do what it does best............manage itself. It's our intervention via "game management", loss of habitat, introduction of disease, pollution, etc.....that causes the imbalance that needs to be managed in the first place.

"Conservation is a state of harmony between men and land."

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Old 09-11-2012, 04:39 PM   #34
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Actually some might blame the owners of the pig for leaving it out where a bear could get it. Pretty much the same as leaving pork chops out at a camp.
Beware backcountry hikers!

"The Polynesians and Melanesians in the South Pacific called Europeans 'Long Pig' because they claimed their flesh tasted sweet like pork and much different compared to their neighbors. American firefighters often cannot stand the smell of bacon because it reminds them of burnt human flesh."

Plus how many guys can say their girlfriends never once called them a pig.
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Old 09-11-2012, 05:41 PM   #35
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This thread has twisted quite a bit from the OP . I know that happens ,but I wanted to type my opinions related to the OP.
Just my unedjumicated opinions , given freely so there is a money back guarantee

1. Great mast last fall and the year before , late start to real winter was late as well.
2. That leads to an above average birth rate for cubs .
3. Those late frosts then drought this year left not much for mast this year.
4. Momma bear is gonna do what it takes to feed her kids and self.
5. Poppa bear also has to eat an awe full lot to get fat enough to make it through a tough winter.
6. If that means stealing hikers food or breaking into camps that's what they have to do.
7. You got your camp broke into for the first time in a long time.
8. It happens. Do what you can to make sure your camp is clean , also make sure you don't have any bees building houses in your camp.
9. If you do have a chance to shoot a bear , make double sure there are no cubs.
10. Make sure you are knowledgeable beforehand to make sure you can be sure the meat does not go to waste. ( A lot different from cooling down a deer )
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Old 09-11-2012, 06:13 PM   #36
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Beware backcountry hikers!
Because, there's a boy from the city with a gun and he aims to use it
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Old 09-11-2012, 06:32 PM   #37
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Well 1894, I think my answer to the question I originally posted is a resounding YES. I've heard from others that wildlife biologists know best and that banning pre-baiting makes it more of a challenge and I should have not have anything that has any odor in my camp since it appears that the concensus is that if a bear breaks in its my fault.

I've tried to keep it lighthearted but it is obvious that despite that this is a sub-forum labeled Hunting and Fishing more non-hunters and probably those living outside the Park have an opinion about bear hunting. Bears rule! Long live Smokey, Yogi, Booboo and Pooh.
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Old 09-11-2012, 08:21 PM   #38
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How about them Yankees?
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:52 AM   #39
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Well 1894, I think my answer to the question I originally posted is a resounding YES. I've heard from others that wildlife biologists know best and that banning pre-baiting makes it more of a challenge and I should have not have anything that has any odor in my camp since it appears that the concensus is that if a bear breaks in its my fault.

I've tried to keep it lighthearted but it is obvious that despite that this is a sub-forum labeled Hunting and Fishing more non-hunters and probably those living outside the Park have an opinion about bear hunting. Bears rule! Long live Smokey, Yogi, Booboo and Pooh.
Now that you mention it. Humans are more at risk from over population then from anything a bear can or will do. Which is why when anyone brings "managing the population" into the conversation, I wonder why the "solution" isn't acceptable across the board. If it's a tried and true method, then...........

I find there are always extremists on either side of the debate, all too often the reason cited for disagreement is "Anti" or "pro" (gun or hunter, take your pick), when their opinion is based on a different view and Just because they don't agree it doesn't mean they are wrong or have an agenda only that they disagree with us.

So, there is no reason why we can't continue to keep it light and respectful.
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Old 09-12-2012, 11:46 AM   #40
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Any hunter who can semi-consistently take a bear without bait, dogs or staking out the local landfill (or dumpster) is truly an accomplished hunter and woodsman.

Because bears feed for 20+ hours a day to prepare for hibernation, they have to move around a lot to find what is ripe to eat at any given time. This varies by the year as some years there are abundant cherries but few beechnuts, blueberries, etc. Bears are also experts at avoiding human contact. I am not a bear hunter, but I do spend over 30 days/season hunting in bear country not to mention fishing, canoeing, etc. and I am forever amazed at how few bear I see. Most of the bear I have seen have been in the summer around blueberries or running across the road.

So the question was, should feeding be allowed up until the start of the regular deer season? I do not believe that baiting is fair chase. When Jesse Ventura was governor of Minnesota, he said feeding “Yogi” doughnuts for five days and then shooting him in the back: “That ain’t sport. That’s assassination”. Baiting is attracting your quarry to a particular location in order to kill them. It is definitely disrupting a creatures natural habits to give the hunter an advantage. Do we have too many bear? If there aren't too many bear, then baiting can't be justified in my opinion. Unless the management objectives are not being met, I don't think baiting should be allowed at all.
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