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Old 12-09-2013, 11:12 PM   #1
forest dweller
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Enough wolves in Wisconsin to shoot for sport but NONE in the Adirondacks??????!!!!!!

I never knew that WISCONSIN of all places had enough wolves to have a hunting season on them but the Adirondacks still have not ONE????!!!

I just find that very bizarre.
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Old 12-10-2013, 08:44 AM   #2
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Coyote hunting is legal in NY...........so even if the wolf made an appearance ....... Unfortunately too few hunters understand and have kinship with fellow predators.
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Old 12-10-2013, 08:48 AM   #3
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It would be hard to have a hunting season on an animal that does not exist (at all) or does not have a existing breeding population here in the park. This is a very touchy topic, since there are a lot of people who would love to see the wolves reintroduced into the park with no hunting season. We have coyotes who show the same types of behaviors as the wolves (some experts claim the coyotes are part wolf, genetically) (i.e., hunting and social behaviors). There is a hunting season on Coyotes (Oct 1 - Mach 30)
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Old 12-10-2013, 12:50 PM   #4
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There is a hunting season on Coyotes (Oct 1 - Mach 30)
6 months, 24-7 open season, unlimited bag limit.
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Old 12-10-2013, 02:08 PM   #5
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Is it just me or is 6 months 24-7 with an unlimited bag limit a little high? If this is NY's attempt at population control then I guess science was an afterthought. When coyotes are killed at extreme rates the number of pups per litter practically doubles. This is proven to occur due to the new abundance of food available for the next generation of coyotes. I enjoy the presence of coyotes and also respect hunting, but the NYSDEC needs to rethink this one.
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Old 12-10-2013, 02:56 PM   #6
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[QUOTE=Carmine;210790]Is it just me or is 6 months 24-7 with an unlimited bag limit a little high? If this is NY's attempt at population control then I guess science was an afterthought. When coyotes are killed at extreme rates the number of pups per litter practically doubles. This is proven to occur due to the new abundance of food available for the next generation of coyotes. I enjoy the presence of coyotes and also respect hunting, but the NYSDEC needs to rethink this one.[/

NYS hunters couldn't kill enough coyotes to put a dent in the population even if the season never closed. They are extremely hard to hunt due to being mostly nocturnal and very wary of man. Many states have no closed season on coyotes and still have high populations.

I spend an awful lot of time in the woods year round and can count on one hand the number of coyotes I've seen in the woods. I see tracks everyday, and occasionally one from the road but they are rarely seen in the woods.
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Old 12-10-2013, 04:15 PM   #7
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History has tried to erradicate the coyotes a number of times (poison, traps, hunting, etc) and I agree, it seems to have only made them come back even more agressive.

I also agree that the coyote is a very WILEY animal and very hard to hunt. I find that most of my friends have shot and killed their coyotes, did so by chance, from tree stands or blinds while hunting deer or bear.

Either way, they seem to be here for good.

One question hat has brought up many times though is whether or not they thrive in their numbers they do mainly because there is no other top predator. Would their numbers be the same if there were a significant wolf and/or cougar population?
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Old 12-10-2013, 04:31 PM   #8
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Wolves are really the only wild predator (not counting man of course) that is known for killing coyotes for territorial purposes. Sometimes, however, the tides are turned in a rare situation when a pack of coyotes out number a single wolf (proven in Yellowstone). This is especially interesting when considering that coyotes in the West are on average 20lbs smaller that eastern coyotes.
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Old 12-10-2013, 06:06 PM   #9
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I think you guys misunderstood what I was trying to say and steered the conversation out into left field as a result!

My point is that when one thinks of wilderness that is big enough to accomodate a substantial population of wolves i would think the Adirondacks would come to mind before Wisconsin.

Wouldn't it make more sense that the Adirondacks have wolves and Wisconsin doesn't?
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Old 12-10-2013, 06:12 PM   #10
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I think you guys misunderstood what I was trying to say and steered the conversation out into left field as a result!

My point is that when one thinks of wilderness that is big enough to accomodate a substantial population of wolves i would think the Adirondacks would come to mind before Wisconsin.

Wouldn't it make more sense that the Adirondacks have wolves and Wisconsin doesn't?
No because NY is more densely populated and pretty much eradicated the wolves. Wisconsin overall is more remote and better suited to wolves then NY. What we call "wilderness" here is a lot less remote or wild then many areas in many other states. You can travel for miles in Wisconsin and lots of other states without coming across roads or development of any kind. non wilderness areas in lots of states are much more remothe then what we consider "wilderness". In fact what we designate as wilderness, really isn't.
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Old 12-10-2013, 06:23 PM   #11
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We only went by what you posted:

"I never knew that WISCONSIN of all places had enough wolves to have a hunting season on them but the Adirondacks still have not ONE????!!!"

How did you expect us to interpret that?

The only reason I know what you are referring to now is from your last post.


First, you need to understand the history of wolves in Wisconsin and of those of New York (Particulalry the ADKs). You should also understand the history and current dynamics of the park, in comparison to other parks such as Yellowstone, Yosemite, Glacier, etc. The Adirondack park has an interesting dynamic as it is the only park that has such a very large mixture of private and public land. This throws a monkey wrench into the plans of say a successful reintroduction. The state has learned this from the Lynx project

I would love to hear the sound of the wolf howl here in the ADKs. I have to go to Algonquin Provincial Park in Ontario to do so. I just do not think it will ever happen in my life time anyway
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Old 12-10-2013, 07:59 PM   #12
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My point is that when one thinks of wilderness that is big enough to accomodate a substantial population of wolves i would think the Adirondacks would come to mind before Wisconsin.
There was a protected source population of 3,000 wolves next door in MN to recolonize northern WI and the Michigan UP.

Nothing like that anywhere near NY.

Italy and Eastern Europe support wolves (and grizzlies) among higher human densities than interior New England and the ADKs.
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Old 12-10-2013, 10:56 PM   #13
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No because NY is more densely populated and pretty much eradicated the wolves. Wisconsin overall is more remote and better suited to wolves then NY. What we call "wilderness" here is a lot less remote or wild then many areas in many other states. You can travel for miles in Wisconsin and lots of other states without coming across roads or development of any kind. non wilderness areas in lots of states are much more remothe then what we consider "wilderness". In fact what we designate as wilderness, really isn't.
I could be wrong, but I just figured at least the Adirondack region of New York is wilder, larger and more remote than the wild areas in Wisconsin. Down state in both states is a different story, but I still would think northern New York is closer to the "real deal" than northern Wisconsin is.
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Old 12-10-2013, 11:01 PM   #14
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Yeah, looking at a map of Wisconsin and it doesn't have big undeveloped areas the way the Adirondacks do.
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Old 12-10-2013, 11:04 PM   #15
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Even their national forests seem fragmented and littered with a lot of what I suspect are logging roads.
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Old 12-10-2013, 11:24 PM   #16
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I guess it really comes down to just how much and how "successfully" (badly) we eradicated them.

I wish I could be part of some vigilante group for nature and wildlife...go get a few entire packs somehow and release them at Tahawus!

Kidding of course, but it angers me that we have been smart enough to undo a lot of damage but some damage is so bad it's just irreversible.
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Old 12-11-2013, 09:22 AM   #17
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@forest dweller: I understood your point as well and agree with your original statement. Allowing a top predator that is not human (wolf or mountain lion) to return to the Adirondacks would be an interesting chapter in the history of the mountains.
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Old 12-11-2013, 09:28 AM   #18
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I could be wrong, but I just figured at least the Adirondack region of New York is wilder, larger and more remote than the wild areas in Wisconsin. Down state in both states is a different story, but I still would think northern New York is closer to the "real deal" than northern Wisconsin is.
Something to think about... if you include private roads, in the Adirondacks, you can never get further than 5 or 6 miles from the nearest road.

Florida has areas more remote than NY... in the everglades, it is possible to get 10 miles from a road.
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Old 12-11-2013, 09:45 AM   #19
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Wilderness seems to have nothing to do with wolves presence but deer and road density may be the real culprits. It helps to have a wolf supplier too..in Wisconsins case Minnesota

http://onwisconsin.uwalumni.com/feat...s-at-the-door/
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Old 12-11-2013, 09:50 AM   #20
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Something to think about... if you include private roads, in the Adirondacks, you can never get further than 5 or 6 miles from the nearest road.

Florida has areas more remote than NY... in the everglades, it is possible to get 10 miles from a road.
Not necessarily fair and accurate - if you don't count the Moose River Plains Road as a road (because there is zero development along it) and some dirt roads within / near the Five Ponds Wilderness, and a few undeveloped dirt roads near Shattuck Clearing - I think it's fair to say that the Adirondacks are far wilder than the wild areas in Wisconsin.

And if you could drive on water there would probably be more roads in the Everglades.
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