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Old 01-06-2014, 02:16 PM   #101
gulo
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Check the scale. Hamilton County (1808 sq. miles) alone is more than 1/2 the size of Yellowstone Park (3468 sq. miles).
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:55 PM   #102
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Rough sketch, but just used the Google map scale.
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Old 01-07-2014, 01:01 AM   #103
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@Gulo, nice link to the Doug Smith article. I just read it and another good point he makes is the 'island' type ecosystem of Yellowstone: "Yellowstone National Park and the five National Forests around it can be likened to a huge island. It's the most impressive wild land we have got in the lower 48, and some people say it's the most impressive temperate zone wild land in the world. But it's got an abrupt boundary to it. I frequently fly over here in an airplane, and at the boundary of a National Forest, it turns into a sea of humanity. And wolves are notoriously bad at getting through seas of humanity. Wolves get shot a lot." Doug Smith

The Adirondack park has also become a major wild island in a sea of humanity and if a self sustaining and manageable population of wolves or mountain lions is desired in the near future then reintroduction is the only way.

Keep in mind Montana was 500 miles from the nearest wolf population. I think he does say wolves would have eventually made it to Yellowstone just as wolves have repopulated areas of Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana and even seen as far away as California.

Northern Wisconsin has more people per square mile and a road density 1.5X greater than the Adirondacks, Tug Hill and north to the St Lawrence.

What we really, really need for people in the states to hook up with people in Canada and create an extended park/wildlife corridor with protection for wolves and other wildlife in the A2A corridor.

Here is another link worth a look. Information is a little dated. It's on the A2A wildlife corridor:

http://www.ancientforest.org/a2a.html#fig4

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Old 01-07-2014, 08:49 AM   #104
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What we really, really need and is my "dream" is for people in the states to hook up with people in Canada and create an extended park/wildlife corridor with protection for wolves and other wildlife in the A2A corridor.
Sounds like A2A and Two Countries, One Forest ought to be working on getting wolves better protection in Canada.

In her talk at the '07 Eastern Puma Conference in Peterborough, a woman from A2A said the biggest impediment to wildlife crossing from Ontario into NY are the Jersey Barriers along I-41. So why isn't A2A working on that, the way they're working on wildlife crossings along the Trans-Canada in the Bow Valley?

Sounds like this conference might be the place where some of these issues will be addressed.
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Old 01-07-2014, 11:25 AM   #105
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Speaking of wolf restoration in the East, here's a recent article from Maine - http://bangordailynews.com/2014/01/0...re/?ref=search
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Old 01-07-2014, 03:06 PM   #106
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Sounds like A2A and Two Countries, One Forest ought to be working on getting wolves better protection in Canada.

In her talk at the '07 Eastern Puma Conference in Peterborough, a woman from A2A said the biggest impediment to wildlife crossing from Ontario into NY are the Jersey Barriers along I-41. So why isn't A2A working on that, the way they're working on wildlife crossings along the Trans-Canada in the Bow Valley?

Sounds like this conference might be the place where some of these issues will be addressed.
The section of the 401 (not I-41) that crosses the A2A does not have the Jersey Barriers. In many places the lanes are a hundred yards apart or more. It was the last section of the 401 to be built. There are underpasses and many large culverts.
Of the overpasses non are major roads, all are county or township roads.
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Old 01-07-2014, 09:56 PM   #107
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If there's no barriers, then the reason they're not roaming into the Daks is one of density and carrying capacity. No need to move.
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Old 01-07-2014, 11:52 PM   #108
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You are correct. The population is nowhere near what it can be due to excessive hunting and the success of coyotes and hybrids. Each year 500+ canid pelts are taken from this area alone not to mention how many are shot and left in the woods (that's a shout out to you deer hunters). Many are wolf pelts.

The wolves south of Algonquin because they are hunted struggle to achieve a threshold to keep from being gene swamped by coyotes. So what crosses the border usually is a hybrid.

BTW after an afternoon drive...the main barrier....the St. Lawrence is completely frozen like a sheet of fresh Zamboni flooded surface. For wolves as the islands have large deer populations, that opens up a veritable wilderness to exploit.
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Old 01-09-2014, 09:52 AM   #109
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I'm sure you're aware of this Gman, but I finally took a look at the Ontario wolf - ahem - management policy.

Wildlife Management Unit 51 (see Southern Ontario map) is Algonquin Park. Except for a 6-month hunting season in the WMUs around the Park, it's virtually open season on wolves and coyotes clear through the A2A corridor to the St. Lawrence. No wonder they're not getting through. Makes the wolf hunting policies in the States since federal de-listing look progressive.

We're seeing similar dispersal suppression from open seasons on cougars in the Prairie States east of the source colonies.
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Old 01-09-2014, 02:36 PM   #110
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See what I mean and the wolves have to leave Algonquin in winter because there are no deer in the Park in winter. The skinny limited protection around the Park is nothing. See how much wolf habitat there is on the A2A? North of Hwy 7 it is mainly public land but unfortunately it is a redneck paradise too.

All you need is a small game license and there is NO limit. Like I said squirrels, rabbits and raccoons get better protection.

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Old 01-09-2014, 02:49 PM   #111
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Here is a link of a moose named Alice who did the A2A in reverse. Also there is some info about a wolf that travelled across 2 Provinces and a couple States.

http://www.a2alink.org/alice-the-moose.html
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Old 01-13-2014, 07:05 PM   #112
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Before you read this know that I have nothing against deer hunters, all my friends and family hunt. However, after thinking more about the wolf situation, I have come to the conclusion that the solution is simple, stop deer hunting. Deer account for about half of what wolves and other large carnivores eat in the northern climates. In WI, the deer harvest by licensed hunters over the past 40 years ranges from around 100,000 (rarely) to 400,000 (more the norm) deer per year, not including unreported takes. The numbers are probably larger for NYS. We took away their food source and we wonder why they are not repopulating their former habitats. Northern WI has an established wolf population of only about 800 and this will be the limit because the food source is at this time limited.
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Old 01-13-2014, 10:24 PM   #113
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I have come to the conclusion that the solution is simple, stop deer hunting.
Your conclusion is not workable for many reasons. One of them is that there are a half million New York hunters spending almost $700 million per year on deer hunting alone.


From the DEC website....

"Each year, more than 500,000 deer hunters contribute nearly $690 million to New York State's economy through hunting related expenses, and through license purchases and federal excise taxes hunters generate over $35 million to support management activities of NYSDEC...."
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Old 01-13-2014, 11:15 PM   #114
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You can please both...hunters and wolf supporters. There are more deer now than ever. However there are probably not enough deer in pristine areas to please both. If wolves do eventually occupy the heart of the Adirondacks then hunters who wish for a traditional backwoods Adirondack experience may find game harder to harvest. However there will still be plenty of deer left in other parts of the State. If you were only interested in harvesting a deer the core of the ADK's is not the place to hunt anyway.

It does lead to a potential conundrum though. Will wolves opt for the remote security of the Park or leave the Park for more game elsewhere? From my experience in Ontario the answer is no and yes...or yes and no.
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Old 01-15-2014, 09:45 AM   #115
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I've often wondered why hunting is called "sport". As a person who has been hunted (Southeast Asia), I can't really consider it sporting.

On the other hand, hunting deer is also considered a herd management tool so it brings to thought a double edge tool to solve some present and future problems. Since it is evident that the planet is becoming over populated and we will eventually (sooner than later) run out of resources, (without even considering the climate change controversy), why not use hunting as a way to manage the human population since it seems to be the favored method of controlling the others? Plus there is a larger abundance of humans than prey animals so there would be plenty of game. the population would be brought into check and it would definately be sporting because the prey could shoot back. There would be an adreline rush because each could be prey as well as predator.
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Old 01-15-2014, 11:04 AM   #116
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We already have that management plan. It's called WAR. And just as when deer are harvested by humans, the human fecundity rate increases after a war.
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Old 01-20-2014, 03:44 PM   #117
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Wolves and cougars can only eat so much. They will not destroy the deer population in the ADKs. For example, say there are 150 Wolves & 150 Cougars in the ADKs, multiply that times how many deer they can consume (estimated Deer population in ADKs is 180,000). I think we can see that the deer population would not suffer much. As well as the fact that Wolves/Cougar don't only prey on deer. In addition, I have read that Wolves/Cougar would keep the Coyote & Bear populations in check (especially Coyote). Therefore limiting how many Deer are killed by Coyote/Bear. Over time if the Cougar and Wolf population were to increase too much there can be a limited hunt on both to keep their population in check. This could raise money by sales of special Wolf/Cougar hunting permits. My two cents....
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Old 01-20-2014, 03:50 PM   #118
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Also, someone said the ADKs are not wild enough or there is not enough wilderness (or something like that).
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Old 01-20-2014, 05:02 PM   #119
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Do you have a link supporting your deer population figures?. The article below mentions the ADK deer population to be 60-80,000.
http://www.adirondackexplorer.org/st...bate-over-deer

This article says 56-95,000 deer live in the ADK's.
http://www.protectadks.org/2013/01/a...ndred-cougars/
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Old 01-20-2014, 05:19 PM   #120
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Your conclusion is not workable for many reasons. One of them is that there are a half million New York hunters spending almost $700 million per year on deer hunting alone.


From the DEC website....

"Each year, more than 500,000 deer hunters contribute nearly $690 million to New York State's economy through hunting related expenses, and through license purchases and federal excise taxes hunters generate over $35 million to support management activities of NYSDEC...."

Serious question: how much money is is spent on deers running into cars? The number is something like $4.5 billion in the US so I would bet it is over $400 million in NYS. Wolves could bring that number down a lot.
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