Adirondack Forum  
Rules Membership Donations and Online Store Adkhighpeaks Foundation ADKhighpeaks Forums ADKhighpeaks Wiki Disclaimer

Go Back   Adirondack Forum > The Adirondack Forum > Adirondack Wildlife
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-20-2013, 01:12 AM   #61
Gman
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Standing in a stream waving a stick
Posts: 1,009
I am from Gananoque and it freezes all the way across in many places. The only trouble spot is the shipping channel on the US side.

I believe the ice breaker (Griffon) that works this section runs until Dec. 30th to keep the channel only clear (if needed). Then starts up again in late March to clear only the channel for the shipping season but for 10 weeks its tied to a pier in Kingston or Prescott. If they allowed ice breaking between those dates Save the River would go ballistic.

You don't see many (any) pure bred wolves in NY because they are not protected on our side. You do have plenty of hybrids that got into NY State this way.

The whole A2A needs to be protected.
Gman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2013, 07:49 AM   #62
randomscooter
Native Earthling
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Scooterville, NY
Posts: 1,500
Quote:
Originally Posted by l'oiseau View Post
At any rate, as an applied scientist I often think I think we (whatever you want to call us) have it all wrong despite how right we think are. A great spirit, a god, or some unknown force causing the 'Big Bang'... does it really matter?
I couldn't agree more. It's the ultimate example of throwing out the baby with the bath water.
__________________
Scooting here and there
Through the woods and up the peaks
Random Scoots awaits (D.P.)


"Pushing the limits of easy."™
randomscooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2013, 02:08 PM   #63
Carmine
Member
 
Carmine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 17
Just to reiterate the difficulty of natural recolonization, here is a snip from the US Geological Survey covering the topic of wolf reintroduction into the Adirondacks.

USGS - Wolf Restoration to the Adirondacks.jpg

In addition to this recent article there are a few more the can be found at the USGS site.
Carmine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2013, 03:43 PM   #64
Gman
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Standing in a stream waving a stick
Posts: 1,009
Wolves were 500+ miles from Yellowstone. There are wolves 50 - 100 miles from the Adirondacks. They just need protection.

Last edited by Gman; 12-29-2013 at 04:14 PM..
Gman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2013, 04:14 PM   #65
Eastern Puma
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 85
Here's another way to restore Eastern Wolves to the Adirondacks--Stop persecuting coyotes! Eastern coyotes, aka coywolves, are already part wolf. The Dacks lack effective deer predators--stalking predators such as cougars and cursorial predators such as wolves. Members of the genus Canis are very plastic. If coyotes were not killed in such numbers, I predict they'd become more wolflike.

The problem is--if people of influence are unwilling to tolerate deer predation by coyotes--however ineffective-why would they ever support restoration of wolves?
Eastern Puma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2013, 11:54 PM   #66
gulo
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: the Gunks
Posts: 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastern Puma View Post
The problem is--if people of influence are unwilling to tolerate deer predation by coyotes--however ineffective-why would they ever support restoration of wolves?
Give wolves somethings bigger to eat than deer. Make it a moot point.
gulo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2013, 09:52 AM   #67
Eastern Puma
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 85
Well, moose are recolonizing the Adirondacks.

Here's another reason why advocates of wolf restoration in the Northeast should advocate sensible management of eastern coyotes. Many deer hunters cannot distinguish wolves from coyotes. In North Carolina, 24/7 killing of coyotes has been authorized. This year, six red wolves have been shot--presumably by coyote hunters. Red wolves are a listed federal Endangered Species. Why would it be different if wolves lived in the Adirondacks?

And another reason for wolf advocates to be coyote advocates--fear of attacks on humans. Even though there have been only TWO documented fatal attacks on humans in North America in recorded history, people are still afraid, and this fear is exploited by the media--as in the 2011 movie The Grey. Only two fatal attacks by coyotes are known, but people are afraid of them also.
Eastern Puma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2013, 10:39 AM   #68
yellowcanoe
Member
 
yellowcanoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,172
So you are suggesting that there are ample moose to serve as potential food for wolves in NY?

500-800 seems unlikely. Here there are 70,000 . Its not surprising that moose sightings are rare in the Adirondacks.

Because there are so many deer in the ADK's brainworm is always an issue . It can be transmitted deer to moose.

To assume the population of moose is increasing securely is folly. Many states have had moose populations crash..namely MN and NH.
yellowcanoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2013, 01:48 AM   #69
producer
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastern Puma View Post
Even though there have been only TWO documented fatal attacks on humans in North America in recorded history
I am definitely the last person to quote wikipedia as a source, but they list 4 north american wolf fatalities. After looking more into the sources, 2 were directly from the attack, and 2 were afterwards from rabies contracted from the wolves. Only saying 2 is a little misleading, and the 2 that you refer to are since the turn of the century, very recent. It also says there may have been upwards to 6 more pre-1900 but the stories are not necessarily reliable, word of mouth. Is this a relatively small amount, yes of course and Im not arguing against that, just wanted to put it out there about the numbers.

The whole thing is very similar to cougar attacks, relatively low numbers in N. America. Numbers for wolves are much different outside the continent, by the way.
producer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2013, 10:36 AM   #70
geogymn
Member
 
geogymn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,005
Quote:
Originally Posted by producer View Post
I am definitely the last person to quote wikipedia as a source, but they list 4 north american wolf fatalities. After looking more into the sources, 2 were directly from the attack, and 2 were afterwards from rabies contracted from the wolves. Only saying 2 is a little misleading, and the 2 that you refer to are since the turn of the century, very recent. It also says there may have been upwards to 6 more pre-1900 but the stories are not necessarily reliable, word of mouth. Is this a relatively small amount, yes of course and Im not arguing against that, just wanted to put it out there about the numbers.

The whole thing is very similar to cougar attacks, relatively low numbers in N. America. Numbers for wolves are much different outside the continent, by the way.
Understand your quest for clarity. Anyone have any numbers of deaths caused by other rabid animals or deaths due to domestic dogs?
__________________
"A culture is no better than its woods." W.H. Auden
geogymn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2013, 11:11 AM   #71
Odyssey
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 30
Thanks for the excellent link YC. http://www.defenders.org/publication...ndack_park.pdf
Pages 29-32 discusses the human disturbance issues likely to make wolf populations unsustainable. Page 37 mentions the likelihood any ADK population being unable to successfully "link" with other populations. The conclusions on pages 37-40, are invaluable to understanding the challenges faced with reintroducing a viable wolf population to the ADK's.
Odyssey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2013, 11:32 AM   #72
Wldrns
Member
 
Wldrns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Western Adirondacks
Posts: 4,384
Quote:
Originally Posted by geogymn View Post
Understand your quest for clarity. Anyone have any numbers of deaths caused by other rabid animals or deaths due to domestic dogs?
You may find interesting reading on the NYSDOH web page.
__________________
"Now I see the secret of making the best person, it is to grow in the open air and to eat and sleep with the earth." -Walt Whitman
Wldrns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2013, 12:55 PM   #73
Blackhawk
Member
 
Blackhawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 174
speaking about statistics -
wild canid attacks on humans and their pets in the u.s. will never/ever catch-up with the statistics/rates of domestic dog attacks on humans and related fatalities. and never in a hundred years will wild u.s. canids be as dangerous to pet dogs and cats as the current pet euthanization rates we're seeing throughout the u.s.
and of course wild canids will never be as dangerous as current human on human murder/attack rates in the u.s. that is so common and accepted in the u.s. that when a murder occurs it's accepted as a normal everyday occurrence. but if a wild canid, bear or mountain lion attacks a human then it's an all-out manhunt to hunt, track-down and dispatch that animal or one that might fit the description of the suspect animal. this is human nature.
__________________
Give a man/woman or child a fish or meat and feed them for a day. Teach them how to fish or hunt and feed them for a lifetime - and they'll never forget you.

My photos cannot be used without my written permission.
Blackhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2013, 01:11 PM   #74
producer
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by geogymn View Post
Understand your quest for clarity. Anyone have any numbers of deaths caused by other rabid animals or deaths due to domestic dogs?
This is mostly about wolves, but has a lot of other data, including domestic dogs on p. 32.

http://www.nina.no/archive/nina/PppB...elding/731.pdf
producer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2013, 03:31 PM   #75
Gman
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Standing in a stream waving a stick
Posts: 1,009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odyssey View Post
Thanks for the excellent link YC. http://www.defenders.org/publication...ndack_park.pdf
Pages 29-32 discusses the human disturbance issues likely to make wolf populations unsustainable. Page 37 mentions the likelihood any ADK population being unable to successfully "link" with other populations. The conclusions on pages 37-40, are invaluable to understanding the challenges faced with reintroducing a viable wolf population to the ADK's.
I have read this report before. It is 20 years old and a lot has changed since then. For example what are so called Eastern Canada Wolves going to eat in Algonquin Park now that there are no more deer in Algonquin Park?

I would also say most of these opinions are nonsense. Whoever came up with the road density idea was way off base.
Gman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2013, 03:49 PM   #76
Odyssey
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 30
Come on up to Algonquin, and see for yourself. Deer numbers have fallen. The main threat to these wolves are (just like ADK) human threats/pressures outside the park boundaries. There's more than enough beaver during den season, and wolves do seek opportunities. Habitats change in time, with climate change etc., hence the ungulate prey lying outside park boundaries. Other species here are feeling the stress also. The gist of the dated study remains the same though. A sustainable wolf population requires a less fragmented and less disturbed series of interconnected habitats. Safer corridors between other viable populations would also be needed. Things are not improving for a potential viable wolf trial in ADK, unless you'll be shipping people out, and wolves in.
Odyssey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2013, 07:33 PM   #77
gulo
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: the Gunks
Posts: 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odyssey View Post
Things are not improving for a potential viable wolf trial in ADK, unless you'll be shipping people out, and wolves in.
Italy is about the same size as California and contains 60 million people, compared to CA's 38 million. Italy supports wolves:

"HABITAT
The Italian wolf is found mainly in the Apennine Mountains in Italy. They have been found dwelling within 25 miles of Rome. Semi-recently, they have implanted themselves in Southern France, and areas of Switzerland."

And, "Remnant populations remain in Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece and Finland, though Eurasian wolves have been recovering naturally in several parts of Europe; recolonising France, Germany, Sweden and Norway. The largest populations now occur in eastern Europe, primarily in Romania (20 million people; area the size of Wyoming), the Balkans and Poland….With the exception of Russia, European wolf populations number 18,000-25,000."

18,000 - 25,000 across Europe amid way higher human densities, and everyone's worked up about 6,000 wolves in the Lower 48. Will someone please cite some current peer-reviewed research that concludes that the Daks cannot support wolves.
gulo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2013, 09:06 PM   #78
Odyssey
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 30
It would also to be helpful if there were cited studies to prove human threats through hunting/trapping/poisoning and settlement spread were mere folly, or at the very least, decreasing. There is adequate habitat in the Daks for wolves, but it's questionable whether this island of Canus could be sustainable without aggressive measures to control...us.
The Eurasian cousins are less disturbed by human presence. Forming smaller packs or only pairing off, seems an adaptation to human disturbance. It would be interesting to see if the Eastern and Grey could likewise adapt, if it were not for the successful expansion of coyote populations throughout much of NA. The same pressures are brought to bear on coyotes, but they have been much more resilient and successful residing so close to humans. They seem to fill a niche, and as our population grows, so do theirs it seems. They're likely filling the void left by our extirpation of wolves.
I would personally love to see a "re-wilding" of our lands, but I doubt many of my neighbours share my sentiment. If we don't inject some will into our politicians, and sense into our inhospitable neighbours, then these "wild islands" will get smaller, and smaller...

Last edited by Odyssey; 12-31-2013 at 10:19 PM..
Odyssey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2014, 10:12 AM   #79
gulo
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: the Gunks
Posts: 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odyssey View Post
There is adequate habitat in the Daks for wolves, but it's questionable whether this island of Canus could be sustainable without aggressive measures to control…us.
Make them an experimental, protected population and give residents the legal means to protect pets, property, livestock and family from wolves. That's how it worked in Wyoming and Idaho.

Quote:
They're likely filling the void left by our extirpation of wolves.
Coyotes are not filling the wolf's void. From the SUNY ESF coyote page:

"Are Coyotes a Threat to Deer or Livestock?

Some people are convinced that coyotes are limiting the abundance of deer, particularly in the Adirondacks, and point to the finding that deer are the predominant food of coyotes in that region. But, deer numbers have progressively increased in all Adirondack counties from the 1970s to peak numbers in the ‘90s. Although there is some evidence that coyotes may limit deer numbers in certain local situations, it is obvious that coyotes have not limited deer abundance on a regional scale.

Coyotes can be a significant problem to individual sheep-raisers and may occasionally kill young calves. Those who raise livestock should recognize that coyotes are a potential hazard and use guard dogs, fencing, pasture management and other practices that minimize opportunities for coyote depredation. Farmers who suffer loss or damage to livestock or pets are permitted to eliminate the “nuisance” coyotes. Uncontrolled domestic dogs are a much greater threat, responsible for losses to livestock far exceeding losses from coyotes."

Robin Holevinski's SUNY ESF research has shown coyotes taking fawns but rarely adults, that upwards of 95% of coyote diet is scavenged deer.
gulo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2014, 01:01 PM   #80
Odyssey
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 30
Protecting wolves on park lands would be achieved with the stroke of a pen (discounting poaching). Enabling residents to protect their own way of life is a grey area, easily abused. I believe education is the key. Steadily we need to convince people that these predators are not a great threat to our lives and livelihoods. Here where I live, and where I travel, hunters are allowed a tag limit for wolves (no limits on coyotes). I guarantee you, many farmers don't buy tags. Shoot, shovel, shut up. Many of these farmers don't have livestock to be threatened. It's a mindset. Wolves along with song birds, turtles etc are considered expendable and useless. As that list grows, our biodiversity shrinks.
You struck the right word Gulo - management. I offer a second word for consideration - compromise. If we want to successfully (re)introduce certain species into our evolving landscape, we'll need to manage this relationship, and consider making compromises wherever needed. I'm not beating up on farmers or hunters. I happily live amongst them, and they are entitled to their livelihoods. Management and compromise will be a tricky thing for all of us.
Gman might have considered that 20 yr old study merely opinionated, but I find it valuable. I wouldn't fear an experimental ADK wolf pack study, but would most definitely fear the defeatist attitude if it failed.
Odyssey is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.

DISCLAIMER: Use of these forums, and information found herein, is at your own risk. Use of this site by members and non-members alike is only granted by the adkhighpeak.com administration provided the terms and conditions found in the FULL DISCLAIMER have been read. Continued use of this site implies that you have read, understood and agree to the terms and conditions of this site. Any questions can be directed to the Administrator of this site.