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Old 11-27-2012, 08:36 AM   #41
WinterWarlock
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Originally Posted by Glenn MacGrady View Post
I'm opposed to nanny state political socialism regulating, spying on, and intervening in every aspect of our god-given lives and property. And doing all these anti-liberal excesses by confiscating up to 50% of our earned wealth, spending it like drunken wastrels, borrowing even more, and providing us with fewer real benefits than our forefathers freely had before there was any Big Brother or Leviathan at all.
Actually I think you mean 'fascist', as the issues you point are hardly socialist policies.

However - it has always seemed to me that the reason the so-called nanny state kicks in is that way too many people today refuse to be accountable for their own actions...and yes, it is a case of one bad apple ruining it for everyone. And so if a fee/permit system helps weed out folks who call the Rangers for help because there is no McDonalds on the summit of Marcy, then so be it.
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:33 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Glenn MacGrady View Post
If you can't walk and sleep in the public woods for free, what the heck is the meaning of "public" and "freedom"? And where are they?

I'm opposed to nanny state political socialism regulating, spying on, and intervening in every aspect of our god-given lives and property. And doing all these anti-liberal excesses by confiscating up to 50% of our earned wealth, spending it like drunken wastrels, borrowing even more, and providing us with fewer real benefits than our forefathers freely had before there was any Big Brother or Leviathan at all.

Yep, the public woods, mountains and waters should be regulated and preserved solely for the disposable-income classes who can afford never ending fees, taxes and excises. Just one big membership-only hunting and fishing club.
I've searched and searched and nowhere do I find "Free" in any definition of"Public" or"freedom".

How does charging a fee for a permit constitute "spying on, and intervening in every aspect of our god-given lives and property"? although from what I see happening in the woods today would make me an advocate of some "spying on"

Just how do you propose that that those public lands be maintained? I would guess that 75% of New Yorkers never set foot on public lands, so should their tax money be used to pay for something that you and I use freely?

I also hear the argument that one can't afford the cost of hiking, canoeing, etc all the time. Yet the people making that argument have hundreds, often thousands of dollars of equipment that they have purchased.

AS far as our forefathers and "Big Brother" it was always there. The difference today is that because of the scrutiny, it's much more obvious. Remember that the man responsible for "all men created equal" owned slaves so perhaps our forefathers and the founders of this political system (I hesitate to use the word country because it wasn't theirs to begin with and it certainly wasn't lost) were not so pure of motives after all. In fact, before the creating of Democracy here, all lands were public and free for access. Look at what happened to the people who lived on them then.
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:02 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn MacGrady View Post
If you can't walk and sleep in the public woods for free, what the heck is the meaning of "public" and "freedom"? And where are they?

I'm opposed to nanny state political socialism regulating, spying on, and intervening in every aspect of our god-given lives and property. And doing all these anti-liberal excesses by confiscating up to 50% of our earned wealth, spending it like drunken wastrels, borrowing even more, and providing us with fewer real benefits than our forefathers freely had before there was any Big Brother or Leviathan at all.

Yep, the public woods, mountains and waters should be regulated and preserved solely for the disposable-income classes who can afford never ending fees, taxes and excises. Just one big membership-only hunting and fishing club.
Are we to take as meaning that you are opposed to a paying for a permit?

I live in a free country and I take public transit to get to work. I never thought twice about paying a fee to ride. Maybe we can settle the question once and for all with a debate of the merits and shortcomings of various political systems.

Just kidding, definitely just kidding.
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:39 PM   #44
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Hawk made an excellent point, (hey it happens once in awhile) about bitching on the one hand about what would probably amount to about a 20 or 30 dollar permit fee, and on the other hand having 2500 bux worth of gear at home and a similarly priced canoe in the garage.

If you got 5 grand worth of stuff for outdoor pursuits (or even 1000 bux worth) and you are crying like a baby about a permit fee it sounds like someone should "give you something real to cry about", as my dear father used to put it.
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:42 PM   #45
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After quietly reading this thread as it developed, I want to know why have a permit system? Every time I paddle in the park, I am alone, in a nice clean place. I don't see evidence of over or mis use. Are you guys thinking about limiting numbers, or collecting money, or something else I can't think of.
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:47 PM   #46
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Ensuring that what needs to be maintained has funds for its maintenance. Not limiting numbers.

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Reservations for 'primitive' campsites is not practical or realistic, even if a system is setup to enable making a reservation who is going to enforce it? Furthermore, who is going to 'guarantee' that a primitive facility in the middle of nowhere is suitable for camping at the specific date of reservation?
Yes it can be practical and realistic.. Its done in Algonquin PP in Ontario. About the size of the Adirondacks. The system has its faults, but the pluses outweigh the minuses.

Unfortunately much of the Adirondacks is NOT in the middle of nowhere. Your perspective may vary if you do not live there.
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:18 PM   #47
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I’m sorry but I have one major concern about fees. It’s called “Politicians”. There is no way that I can visualize that any fees collected would not have a significant portion siphoned off for some pork barrel project conceived by our friends in Albany. If I could be assured the money generated from a permit system would be used for enhancements to paddling in the ADK’s I’d willingly pay the fee.
For me it comes down to a simple question: “Do I trust that the politicians Albany wouldn’t divert the money to some pet project that has nothing to do with paddling in the ADK’s?” -- unfortunately the answer I keep coming up with is NO.
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:33 PM   #48
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Yes it can be practical and realistic.. Its done in Algonquin PP in Ontario. About the size of the Adirondacks. The system has its faults, but the pluses outweigh the minuses.

Unfortunately much of the Adirondacks is NOT in the middle of nowhere. Your perspective may vary if you do not live there.
While most of ADK is readily and easily accessible from the visitor's point of view, how often are the interior facilities inspected by 'qualified' personnel? (DEC campgrounds have a reservation system, how much revenue do they generate altogether after all the bills are paid?)

While it is done in Canada, United States have different tort laws and thus different liabilities. Here's one example, a camper reserves (and pays for) a primitive campsite in the FP - what happens if there's a dead or damaged tree near the 'camp here' disk and a branch happens to fall in windy weather and injure the camper? Or a hiker falls through a rotten plank on a bridge?

Liabilities aside, what happens if you reserve a site and arrive to find the place trashed/storm damaged/occupied? do you get a refund? can you move to a nearby site that is in good shape or do you turn around a leave?
What if people say "I'm not paying for this" and start camping in areas other than designated sites?

Do you remember the sign in register at LTL (Little Tupper) when NYS first acquired it?
Do you know what happened to the nice campsite availability map & tag system they had there? (Rumor has it there was a big fight over a site there and State Police had to get involved..)
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:06 PM   #49
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I don't see the relationship between tort law and permits. We had a campsite destroyed at Forked Lake by a windstorm in the seventies. NYS DEC did not recompensate us for damaged equipment. Ruled Act of God.

And I have had a gun pulled on me at a non permitted campground(Mountain Pond). My tent was gone. So to equate bad behaviour with a permitting process is in my eyes has no relation.
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:42 PM   #50
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flashbacks to 1L discussions about liscensees and invited guests....
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:43 PM   #51
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Bill's post reminded me of a backpack trip my wife and I went on in Gros Morne National Park in Newfoundland. For this particular backpack We had to pay $85 each, watch a 30 minute video and pass a proficiency test in map and compass. The test wasn't easy and there was no way you could fudge your way through. In case we didn't report back within 24 hours of the time we said we would, we had to carry a transponder, the same type used to track caribou.
Neil, since you quoted my rant, I'll use your story as an exemplar.

I think the differences on this subject do boil down to the deepest DNA strands of different political philosophies, perhaps even flavored by Smithian economics and theology.

Your story is probably viewed by many on this forum and elsewhere -- especially in socialistic minds -- as a model of enlightened environmental regulation, preservation, education and public safety.

Other minds, liberal minds -- or perhaps the term du jour would be libertarian minds -- might recoil at your story, as exemplifying unnecessary intrusion into the natural (or god-given) freedom of travel, freedom of public property, freedom of the pursuit of happiness, and the freedom and integrity of human life itself.

Libertarian minds would further view the do-good collectivist goals as wastes of money, corrupted by inefficient governmental bureaucracy, fueled by a tax-anything-that-moves economic mindset, which mainly perpetuates the lifestyles of the monied classes. A liberal/libertarian political and economic philosophy assumes people eventually will regulate themselves in accordance with their own self-interest and risk tolerance -- locally -- without the forced intervention of and taxation by some remote Emperor in Rome.
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:11 PM   #52
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Yawn......
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:49 PM   #53
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Yawn......
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:28 PM   #54
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This has been an interesting discussion contrasting those demanding no cost extractive rights with those willing to pay a little to protect the "commons" of what little wild land remains. It might be useful too, if we had any indication DEC, APA, and the NY legislature were watching. Bar that, why do you folks keep pounding on each other?

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Old 11-27-2012, 07:16 PM   #55
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This would be an interesting discussion if we had any indication DEC, APA, and the NY legislature were watching. Bar that, why do you folks keep pounding on each other?
For the same reason you had me pound a couple dozen bird thighs. The meat is more tender and tasty.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:04 PM   #56
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This would be an interesting discussion if we had any indication DEC, APA, and the NY legislature were watching. Bar that, why do you folks keep pounding on each other?
Why do some folks keep clicking on the thread?

Meet tireless rebutter. Due to an unexplained statistical blip we have a higher frequency here than in the general population.

For Tireless Rebutter there is no such thing as a trivial dispute. He regards all challenges as if the barbarians were battering at the gates. His unflagging tenacity in making his points numbs and eventually wears down the opposition.

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Old 11-27-2012, 08:27 PM   #57
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This would be an interesting discussion if we had any indication DEC, APA, and the NY legislature were watching. Bar that, why do you folks keep pounding on each other?
And how are you so sure they're not ?
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:13 PM   #58
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Why do some folks keep clicking on the thread?

Meet tireless rebutter. Due to an unexplained statistical blip we have a higher frequency here than in the general population.

For Tireless Rebutter there is no such thing as a trivial dispute. He regards all challenges as if the barbarians were battering at the gates. His unflagging tenacity in making his points numbs and eventually wears down the opposition.

http://www.condenaststore.com/-sp/I-..._i8480769_.htm
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:19 PM   #59
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Or maybe it's this:

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Old 11-28-2012, 07:44 AM   #60
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To those who feel that we aren't taxed enough already, I salute your financial wealth.
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