Adirondack Forum  
Rules Membership Donations and Online Store Adkhighpeaks Foundation ADKhighpeaks Forums ADKhighpeaks Wiki Disclaimer

Go Back   Adirondack Forum > The Adirondack Forum > General Adirondack Discussion
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 05-02-2022, 05:20 PM   #1
billconner
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 57
ADK housing

Interesting article in Adirondack Explorer on housing in Adirondacks.
https://www.adirondackexplorer.org/s...rdable-housing
billconner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2022, 09:28 PM   #2
TCD
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,998
The solution is the same as it has always been: dormitory housing. But nobody wants to hear that, so it won't happen. And the nonsensical "problem" will continue to not be solved, while everyone tries to milk the problem for money.
TCD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2022, 04:46 PM   #3
BillyGr
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 119
Doesn't have to be any particular type of housing - just find a piece of land and then someone who can construct a house.

Tell them you can only afford $x dollars, and have them build whatever they can for that amount.

It may be a bit smaller or less fancy than you'd like, but at least it is a starting point - you can always add more space or upgrade things later on when you have more money available.
BillyGr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2022, 03:19 PM   #4
saabrian
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by TCD View Post
The solution is the same as it has always been: dormitory housing. But nobody wants to hear that, so it won't happen. And the nonsensical "problem" will continue to not be solved, while everyone tries to milk the problem for money.
Dorm housing might be fine for seasonal workers only staying for 6-8 weeks, since they're largely younger anyways. But that does nothing for those adults who actually want to (gasp) live and work permanently inside the Blue Line but can't afford or don't want to buy a house. And increasing the year-round population is the cry I hear so often from local officials, volunteer first responder orgs, etc.
__________________
Successful ascents: 131 (78 different) as of 6/12/22
Adirondack/Catskill fire tower challenge: 12/30
Adk 29er challenge: 11/29

Completed: Chester Challenge, Tupper Lake Triad, Hamilton County Waterfall
saabrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2022, 07:25 PM   #5
TCD
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,998
As I predicted, nobody wants to hear that.

I lived in a dorm for years. It works. We want solutions that work.

If I were low income, I would happily live in a properly designed dorm. Men's wing, Women's wing, Family wing, common cooking and dining area.

This is really easy, and it is, in fact, the solution.

But again, no one wants to hear it, because most folks are not invested in solving the problem, but rather in continuing the problem.
TCD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2022, 07:29 PM   #6
billconner
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 57
I thought it sad teachers, police and fire service, laborers en etc. couldn't live there, and s cc holly populations decrease. "more than 70%—are unoccupied year-round" doesn't seem good for the future.
billconner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2022, 07:38 PM   #7
Bunchberry
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 82
I came from Long Island and my father in law lived in senior housing put up by the Town of Oyster Bay. Only TOB residents were allowed to live there. Could that be done? Removing the age requirements of course.

Each person owned their own unit and there was a set price. It was pretty nice.
Bunchberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2022, 08:05 PM   #8
montcalm
Member
 
montcalm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,279
Government subsidized housing? Hmmm... that sounds like communism to me. Not exactly what I was expecting to hear from TCD


The hardcore free market supporter would say let it be. Eventually the people driving up the market prices will get exactly what they payed for. But of course they'll blame the APA...


I tend to think perhaps the solution should be somewhere in between - raise taxes on rich seasonal residents and use that money to provide incentives to permanent residents with proof of employment in the park. Things like tax relief and housing cost assistance. It accomplishes the socialist aspect with a bit more freedom. Just my 0.02.
montcalm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2022, 12:05 PM   #9
saabrian
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by TCD View Post
As I predicted, nobody wants to hear that.

I lived in a dorm for years. It works. We want solutions that work.

If I were low income, I would happily live in a properly designed dorm. Men's wing, Women's wing, Family wing, common cooking and dining area.

This is really easy, and it is, in fact, the solution.

But again, no one wants to hear it, because most folks are not invested in solving the problem, but rather in continuing the problem.
It might help if you acted more interested in addressing the problem and sharing your experiences than trashing the motives of the people who you haven't convinced yet due to inadequate explanation.

I would've loved to hear you elaborate more on your years of dorm living but you'd rather see me as the enemy. The martyr complex is strong.
__________________
Successful ascents: 131 (78 different) as of 6/12/22
Adirondack/Catskill fire tower challenge: 12/30
Adk 29er challenge: 11/29

Completed: Chester Challenge, Tupper Lake Triad, Hamilton County Waterfall
saabrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2022, 03:54 PM   #10
TCD
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,998
Saabrian, I lived in a dorm during college.

Of course it's easy for a young man to live in practically any conditions, so it's not a totally fair comparison.

But if the goal is to get roofs over people's heads as inexpensively as possible, then a dormitory model is the way to do it. The newer "affordable" housing developments that are going in will be MUCH more expensive per unit. They may not actually do much to solve the problem, but folks will get rich building them.

(My reaction to the housing issue is largely the result of watching decades of of more and more money being spent, and the problems getting worse, not better. Where's the money going? Who is getting rich? In whose interest is it that more and more money continues to be spent on "less-than-efficient" "solutions?" Not reacting to your input specifically. But I do think it's incorrect to state that a dorm approach "does nothing" for people who want to live here long term.)

Montcalm, I also understand your point. If there actually were a normal economy here in the Adirondacks, housing and other issues probably would in fact sort themselves out. But government has so massively modified the economy here for so many years, it's not remotely normal. And I would welcome government maybe spending just a bit of money to try to help with the resulting problems.
TCD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2022, 10:30 AM   #11
Klinkhamer
Member
 
Klinkhamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Malta, NY
Posts: 79
Need a circuit breaker

Property taxes typically are based solely on assessed Property Value, however a year round resident making 30-40K a year can't afford property worth several hundred thousand dollars or more with the taxes attached to it. When your neighbor builds a million dollar home next door to your small cabin in the woods, your property values increase to a point the taxes on them become confiscatory and you can lose your home. Need to have a circuit breaker for property taxes based on some other variable(s) such as family income, provided the person(s) on that property are year-round residents actually living & working there in community too. I'm sure this isn't the first time this idea has been heard.
__________________
Rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
Klinkhamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2022, 05:17 PM   #12
Tug Hill
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 288
History repeating itself in the ADKs. In the not to distant future only the rich will be able to afford property or homes there. But Realestate is out of control everywhere. Went with my realtor friend to look at a 6 acre property on Tug Hill with a small spartan, mouse infested , cabin. 11 miles On a old logging road with a a Conservation easement allowing public motor vehicle access . The realtor told the property owner he would list it for $35,000, property owner said no way , list for $50,000. And I’ll bet he gets darn close to that.
Tug Hill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2022, 05:32 PM   #13
montcalm
Member
 
montcalm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,279
All the more reason for the towns to try to control it - taxes are very low in the Adirondacks compared to the rest of the state.

I still advocate the Robin Hood method as the best self-correcting method. If you tax those that can afford it enough and cut taxes on those who live there, then you'll eventually even out to where you're gaining more residents than you can sustain, at that point you start evening the tax burden again. It's a constant adjustment to keep the right balance between those who work and those who play.
montcalm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2022, 06:09 PM   #14
Wldrns
Member
 
Wldrns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Western Adirondacks
Posts: 4,453
"redistribution of wealth": and socialism at its best rearing its ugly head. Pretty soon you will run out of othe people's money. Go to school, (pay for it) and get a better job.
__________________
"Now I see the secret of making the best person, it is to grow in the open air and to eat and sleep with the earth." -Walt Whitman
Wldrns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2022, 06:27 PM   #15
montcalm
Member
 
montcalm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,279
I think the current issue is quite the opposite- it’s people from downstate who have immense purchasing power relative to those who must “serve” them in the Adirondacks. It’s rampant capitalism. Unchecked development as a function of capitalism will not fix the issue either- history tells us exactly how that goes.

Hate to tell you but neither socialism or capitalism in their pure, ideal forms work. The best emergent systems utilize both to check one another.
montcalm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2022, 08:06 PM   #16
Zach
Last seen wandering vaguely
 
Zach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Orwell NY
Posts: 1,011
Property tax rates in the Adirondacks are not uniform. For example the taxes are much lower in Piercefield, in St. Lawrence County, than they are in Tupper Lake, which is adjacent but in Franklin County. I had planned on moving to Tupper Lake, but one of the unintended benefits of where I ended up instead is lower taxes.
Zach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2022, 09:02 PM   #17
Bunchberry
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 82
Maybe non native Adirondackers could be categorized as an invasive species. The DEC could put out traps for them. Like set up a pizza joint with New York City pizza. That will bring in a lot of them. When they come in dart them and then ship them back to were they came from!

Hell they may even catch my wife. She says the pizza around Halfmoon sucks.
Bunchberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2022, 09:19 PM   #18
montcalm
Member
 
montcalm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,279
I bet they'd catch a few at Tony Harper's too.


I really just posted to harass TCD. But we all know it's fun to stay at the YMCA.


As far as tax variations based on town and county, that's not really what I meant. In fact what I'm proposing is already done based on assessed value - some towns are quite rich because of this, but when their year-round residents are suffering, they need to do something to try to even the field and keep properties affordable for those who work there, and will never be "rich" no matter their education or how hard they work.
montcalm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2022, 10:12 PM   #19
TCD
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,998
Well, I appreciate the harassment! (I know it means you really like me...)

You have a good point about the tax base. When I lived in Glens Falls, I watched the same thing happen in the Lake George area. Property assessments became so high that older owners on fixed incomes could not pay the taxes and were driven out. So I think there might be a place for some higher taxes on wealthy "second homes."

But this varies place by place. I live in Keene. Yes, there are some very wealthy "multiple home" folks here who maybe should pay more. But on the flip side, many of our wealthy neighbors do wonderful things for the community. A lot of what happens here with libraries, pre-school, the arts, etc. would not happen without large, often very quiet donations from some of these folks.

But back to the OP of housing: No, of course it's not "fun" to live in a dorm, as opposed to living in your own private home! "Fun" is not the point. The point is: if you want to live in a particular place, and you don't have the money to afford a private home there, then you either have to have some other kind of roof over your head, or you can't stay. Common sense says you need to balance your "want to live here" with practicality. When I graduated college, I went to work in Miami, FL. Miami sucks, and I never wanted to live there, but that was the best job offer I got, and common sense said to put aside "wanting to live in the mountains." I finally got out of Miami and moved to Glens Falls. Much better, but I still wanted very much to live here in Keene. But there is no work here for me, so again, common sense said to work along for 30 more years until I could retire, and finally move here.
TCD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2022, 09:25 AM   #20
montcalm
Member
 
montcalm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,279
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to villainize these people, only promote that the towns and counties have some control over this, and can and should exercise this. If the state steps in it's going to be less effective and more subject to cronyism.

I also get concerned about overdevelopment - if we make it too easy, then we'll see massive land development (and I believe this an issue all over the state, not just the ADKs). That's actually a huge plus to the dormitory idea - development is restricted to towns. But I'm also guessing a good portion of people don't necessarily want to live in the Adirondacks that way i.e. they want a more rural lifestyle - perhaps they want to rehabilitate an old farm house, etc...

As far as your last statement TCD, I couldn't agree more. I would love to live in the Adirondacks, especially now while I'm still young(er) and relatively healthy. But being educated the job market becomes quite restrictive. Sure I could work at a grocery store and maybe eeek out a living, but that's not for me. But really someone has to and towns should make sure they take care of those individuals... if they don't, they will eventually disappear and there'll be nothing but million dollar lake and mountain view houses.

I also think about the retirement aspect - you really don't want to tax those individuals to death (no pun intended) but you also don't want to make it so easy to retire in the Adirondacks that we end up like Florida (although I think the climate makes that an impossibility, but still).

I see how things are in the Finger Lakes, and while some parts of the Adirondacks have close to that level of development, I'd never want to see it become to that widespread. And even with that being said, there's not much economy in these places - many people (that are well off) commute to large cities nearby for work.
montcalm is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:52 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.

DISCLAIMER: Use of these forums, and information found herein, is at your own risk. Use of this site by members and non-members alike is only granted by the adkhighpeak.com administration provided the terms and conditions found in the FULL DISCLAIMER have been read. Continued use of this site implies that you have read, understood and agree to the terms and conditions of this site. Any questions can be directed to the Administrator of this site.