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Emerald Ash Borer

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  • #31
    Verily, we must Choppeth them up...
    and Stompeth them down.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by serotonin View Post
      Verily, we must Choppeth them up...
      and Stompeth them down.

      It'll sure look Ugly for a thousand years.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Schultzz View Post
        "Infestations like this have happened in the past and the trees have adapted to handle them."
        Ash trees do not "handle" the EAB invasive species, they just die and do not return. I suggest you read up on invasive species in this country. They are causing billions of lost dollars to the lumber industry, and becoming a headache to many residential communities within the park and through out the US.
        Infestations like the caterpillars have happened in the past and I assume that's why the trees evolved multiple leafings. It's possible (and I would guess even likely) that something similar will happen with ash trees. It'll just part of the evolution of the ash genome.

        In order for the genome to evolve, a significant portion of the individual tree that do not have favorable characteristics (perhaps well over 99%) die off, leaving behind those that have "mutations" that are favorable to protecting itself from EAB. Sure its painful to watch. Maybe it'll take thousands of years before ash forests can become viable across large regions again.

        Just as mankind has "interfered" with nature by bringing the EAB to this country, mankind may also "interfere" with nature by helping ash trees evolve at a faster pace through gene splicing in an effort to create a better genome.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Crash View Post
          Sure its painful to watch. Maybe it'll take thousands of years before ash forests can become viable across large regions again.



          Who cares...?

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Crash View Post
            Infestations like the caterpillars have happened in the past and I assume that's why the trees evolved multiple leafings. It's possible (and I would guess even likely) that something similar will happen with ash trees. It'll just part of the evolution of the ash genome.

            In order for the genome to evolve, a significant portion of the individual tree that do not have favorable characteristics (perhaps well over 99%) die off, leaving behind those that have "mutations" that are favorable to protecting itself from EAB. Sure its painful to watch. Maybe it'll take thousands of years before ash forests can become viable across large regions again.

            Just as mankind has "interfered" with nature by bringing the EAB to this country, mankind may also "interfere" with nature by helping ash trees evolve at a faster pace through gene splicing in an effort to create a better genome.
            I suspect this will be like most of other invasive encounters in the past two centuries - it's going to kill 99% of the trees it affects. Chestnut, Elm, Beech... all the same. Different pathogens, similar impacts to the ecosystems.

            Trees are incredibly versatile, in some cases forcing their own genetic selection in response to pathogens. Transposons, or transposable genes are active in many plants. Once in a while this strategy works and resistant strains can develop. We are really just starting to understand this reality in that genetics and environment are almost inseparable despite the traditional "nature vs nurture" dichotomy. It's also shown that mechanisms like this actually speed species change through evolution in response to major changes in environment. So called punctuated equilibrium. Us intervening may speed the process such as in Chestnut repopulation and Beech management. The idea is we can cheat what would, or may take thousands of years to reestablish.

            Hard to say if our intervention to fix our mistakes is the right move. Law of unintended consequences says there will be negative impacts of this - but again, negative to who? Our lens is us and our economy. We see these impacts and it frustrates us but really it's a much bigger picture, one that we won't fully understand, and maybe neither will the next generation...

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            • #36
              After a forest fire burns all the available fuel, two things happen. Biochar is created and a new forest begins. Unfortunately WE likely will not see it to fruition, but someone will benefit from it. We can only hope
              that new Ash tree species will be among the new generation growth. I hope then someone else will care.
              Never Argue With An Idiot. They Will Drag You Down To Their Level And Beat You With Experience.

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              • #37
                It's not even that people don't care - some do, but these kind of things are going to happen. They're inevitable if we trade things globally. Same with pandemics. These things aren't new, they go back to the Silk Road.

                Isolation creates specialization and genetic islands. When we, or something else, break these barriers, we have new interactions that may be unfavorable for certain species. The more intermixed the globe becomes, the more of this we will see.

                We aren't really unique in this way either - natural changes have always done this sort of thing but humans can really accelerate the effects and we tend to not like the lack of a quick, short-term fix.
                Last edited by montcalm; 07-02-2021, 09:24 PM.

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                • #38
                  I’m an Industrial Forester who worked for the largest Timberland Manager In NY, (270,000 acres under management) I’ve have not yet seen any evidence of the EAB in the core forest of Tug Hill. So the harvest prescription on the 30,000 acres we manage there, is to continue harvesting on a sustainable basis, by cutting only, unacceptable growing stock , at risk, and mature saw timber sized White Ash trees.We can only hope there are other isolated pockets of Ash trees that may be spared from this infestation.

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                  • #39
                    In 2019 there were 11 counties that hadn't confirmed EAB , now there are 4 . Lewis , Hamilton , Essex , and Washington.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Tug Hill View Post
                      I’m an Industrial Forester who worked for the largest Timberland Manager In NY, (270,000 acres under management) I’ve have not yet seen any evidence of the EAB in the core forest of Tug Hill. So the harvest prescription on the 30,000 acres we manage there, is to continue harvesting on a sustainable basis, by cutting only, unacceptable growing stock , at risk, and mature saw timber sized White Ash trees.We can only hope there are other isolated pockets of Ash trees that may be spared from this infestation.
                      What is the basal area percentage of Ash in the 30k acres?

                      What are the %s of other species?

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                      • #41
                        Don’t know that off hand would have to check in with the office in Saranac Lake, because the property was recently re-inventoried and placed under the 480-A Tax Law, and the cruise was contracted out. Plus it is most likely proprietary.

                        But there is a substantial amount of White Ash in scattered lower slope pockets with deep top soils. In recent timber sales we have harvested large quantities of high grade White Ash sawlogs.

                        Being scattered pockets, maybe the reason we have not yet seen the EAB here ? I’m not sure how far the EAB can travel on its own in its life span, without help from humans ,other animals and insects. And yes this is Lewis County.

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                        • #42
                          OK - not trying to horn in on your trees, just curious what kind of population is escaping.

                          I was assuming less than 10% of the forest component there is Ash though. Maybe that's wrong, but I was roughly guessing based on looking at DEC maps and more detailed assessments of areas I know.

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                          • #43
                            GM Damage in Naples, NY. It's pretty bad, most hillsides look like this or worse.

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                            • #44
                              I went for a short hike today in Rochester area. As I've said before dead Ash trees everywhere. Every once in a while my eye catches something that looks odd, or out of place. Yep - a healthy Ash tree!

                              I didn't inspect them close enough to see if they had been bored, but I bet they were, because I saw other dead trees within a stone's throw (As I said earlier in this thread I know of one tree that had been bored and looks completely unphased). I'm hoping some more will be presented on this later because I'm sure a few people are studying it, but it looks to me some trees may have some sort of resistance... or are just dying a little slower...

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                              • #45
                                I've seen 'dead' ash trees that looked like telephone poles come back to life after beaver were trapped out or abandoned their ponds and stopped maintaining their dams. The water went down, the bottoms dried up a bit, and the old green and black ash skeletons started sprouting near their bases. Ash are pretty tough and I don't discount their resiliency....But for awhile the buckthorn, honeysuckle, mf rose, and VA creeper are loving the extra sun...I bet the woodpeckers aren't complaining either

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