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Marcellus Shale: An Environmental Disaster In The Making

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Paradox6 View Post
    They compete for the work and are a little reluctant to just give up their design and proprietary info to their competitors.

    . . .

    There are a lot of oil companies competing for the acreage and where to drill next and you don't give that up, any more than Macy's told Gimbels.
    If these oil companies were selling clip on ties and bad sweaters I wouldn't care how or where they did it.

    In matters of public health and the environment, however, I think disclosure and oversight are reasonable.

    Comment


    • #32
      Colden - The general information is out in the open. The chemistry is the chemistry. Might have to look for it. But even Heinz doesn't list all of the "spices and flavorings" or their proportions or the specifics when they come up with a new process, and Coke will never disclose what is in the syrup. Once you disclose things like the volumes, depths, pressures, etc used in a specific job, you've told your competitor service companies what they generally need to do to design a competitive process. You've also given away info about your customer's well information that ends up in the hands of their competitors. I don't know what New York's process is, but we had to file completion reports with the regulatory authorities when the well was done, describing what was done. If the well was an infill well, within an established field, disclosure is generally not a problem. But if your drilling a step-out well, away from what was thought to be the original trend or a wildcat, away from any established production, or in a new region where development is spotty, you drilled the well "tight," meaning no one, contractors, drilling rig crew,... breathed a word about your well until you released the info. If I recall correctly, you could file an interim completion report for a limited time indicating the well was "tight." The purpose was to give you time to evaluate additional prospects and make your deals.

      Holdstrong - Hopefully, the operators (producers) are reporting whatever the regulations require. If they are not they should be held accountable. If the regulations don't require enough information to satisfy the agency's information needs, change the regulations. If you change the regulations in a manner where it becomes easier for a producer to do business somewhere else, be thankful for the cheap sweaters.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Paradox6 View Post
        Colden - The general information is out in the open. The chemistry is the chemistry. Might have to look for it. But even Heinz doesn't list all of the "spices and flavorings" or their proportions or the specifics when they come up with a new process, and Coke will never disclose what is in the syrup. Once you disclose things like the volumes, depths, pressures, etc used in a specific job, you've told your competitor service companies what they generally need to do to design a competitive process.
        I wasn't asking for specifics of the process, or proportions, or anything like that. What I was trying to say is that disclosure of a simple list of ingredients in Oreos won't allow me to make Oreos. I would still need to know how much of each thing to put it, when to add each ingredient, how to cook them, etc etc. An actual recipe, in other words. Likewise, it doesn't seem very onerous to me to require a list of substances these companies put into the ground. If that's already being disclosed as you seem to say, then good. (I've never looked into it, I was just responding to what others posted)

        All I know is that I have a well, and I would sure want to know what is being injected into the same ground my water comes out of. If it means I have to pay a few bucks more to heat my house, so be it.

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        • #34
          Colden - I understand the concern. We rely on the govt to understand the science and develop regs for what has to be disclosed, and while I haven't done any oil and gas work in NY, I've never known NY to be a slackard about writing regulations. I don't have a dog in this fight. Not every non-disclosure means something sinister is going on. Most of the big contractors have strict confidentiality requirements for their people and will never talk about a customer's business, they leave it to the customer/producer. Not justifying the practice, just explaining why they do it.

          Comment


          • #35
            Hobbitling - Colden - I hit wikipedia for the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guar_gum and googled Brady sand and came up with this:http://www.halliburton.com/public/pe...Web/H03562.pdf The basic info is out there in the public domain. Sorry I can't be more exhaustive. Gotta get to work.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Paradox6 View Post
              Hobbitling - Colden - I hit wikipedia for the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guar_gum and googled Brady sand and came up with this:http://www.halliburton.com/public/pe...Web/H03562.pdf The basic info is out there in the public domain. Sorry I can't be more exhaustive. Gotta get to work.
              And herein lies part of the problem, but because while there probably isn't anything sinister going on, as you mentioned in your previous post, once Halliburton's name comes up the debate changes, because they haven't been the best of citizens in recent years. Not saying they're doing anything wrong at all, but their credibility has been questionable at best. So I think one can see where some of the concern comes from.
              “Death is the only wise advisor that we have. Whenever you feel, as you always do, that everything is going wrong and you're about to be annihilated, turn to your death and ask if that is so. Your death will tell you, 'I haven't touched you yet.” Carlos Castenada

              Comment


              • #37
                Help!! Dick!! Help!! Hobbittling, quite appropriately, challenges one of my posts. In an effort to repair my honor, (and to share some info with Colden46) I spent 5 minutes Googling and Wikipedi-ing, came up with 4 reference links, which I cut and pasted to a new post, one of which included the dreaded “H-word.” Our heretofore vigilant MODERATOR, throws me under the bus and into the epicenter of “That Vast Right Wing Conspiracy.”

                I was trying to show them a picture and a description of SAND. I’ve held it in my hands, I’ve rolled it between my fingers, I wrote checks for millions of pounds of it. I don’t know what else I can do.

                If we are going to have a conspiracy, can we at least have one that has something for everybody?…like…

                The Great Adirondack Conspiracy

                Did you know?...The Crown Point Bridge really isn’t broke…. It was closed….By the CIA….To stop an attack on the Adirondacks, by a small, but dedicated, band of space invaders, hidden at a secret camp, located in the remote reaches of the dark and foreboding Green Mountains. They were sent here, diverted from Area 51, by Emporer Mork and Queen Mindy, the maternal grandparents of the alien love-child of John Edwards, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men (and aliens) are created equal, on the tarmac of LAX, during a haircut, in retaliation for the quashing of the planned nuptials by his running mate.

                This was not their first attempt. The first attack was planned and directed, based upon outdated and inept intelligence, by their evil vice-president. It was thwarted when their submarine, disguised as a green dinosaur, was spotted by a patriotic, but vigilant, (and seriously over the limit) 7 year-old, who was on Bulwagga Bay, market fishing for perch for a Canadian cat food company.

                The Proof….is in an aluminum Halliburton briefcase. Stolen from Howie Mandel. (And you thought those were earth women.) The briefcase was hidden by Karl Rove in a box of papers, under Hillary Clinton’s bed, where they remain.

                The entire black operation was financed out of a secret fund, it had to be created in such a manner as to protect an incumbent governor facing a tough re-election campaign, so that the ultimate costs were largely borne by his upstate residents, thereby protecting his downstate constituencies. (You didn’t really think trout stamps were for trout.)

                As our beloved Blue Line faces its darkest hour………

                Where, oh where……….is Redhawk?

                Have I left anybody out?

                Comment


                • #38
                  I knew that trout stamp sounded 'fishy'

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Paradox6 View Post
                    Last edited by Paradox6; Today at 01:34 PM.. Reason: typo
                    I'm amused that in a post that contained the words "emperor mork" you were worried about a typo, haha

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by backwoodsman
                      http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.s..._gas_lies.html

                      I was at a friends house a few weeks ago,we were sitting out in the shop talking when this guy comes walking in,he was from the gas company.He talked real fast,said this was his last stop,talked about how much money could be potentially made by letting them on the land,but the paper work would need to be signed that night because that was his last stop and he was heading back to Cleveland.He was politely turned down several times until he finally left.
                      After he left we talked about it.My friend is a farmer,he said it was kinda like playing the lottery,he wasn't interested in it because he wouldn't have to work for it and he didn't want to left with the problems they would leave.
                      I left there feeling lucky to have these folks as my neighbors and friends.
                      Great post, BW.....it's nice to know small town America is still alive & well and there's somethings alot more precious than the "green back dollar"...people with principles & values.....a rare commodity these days & times....Thanks for posting that.....makes me feel like it's not all lost yet....& there might even be some hope....

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I just read in todays paper that they are going to try to set limits on how much we can pollute the streams and rivers that flow into Cheaspeak Bay.NJ and Pa already have rules in effect. This will effect both treatment plants and farmer/urban runoff.

                        When they do the hydro-fracturing they have to run the used frac water thru a treatment plant, which are not equiped to handle the waste now, with the current standards. NYS DEC must issue permits if the treatment plant is in compliance.None are currently, not without large cash infusions to upgrade. Will the new regs concernng the Cheaspeak Bay make these upgraded even more expensive for the treatment plants or will the drillers just truck the frac water and salt water from the gas recovery to a different watershed?
                        Be careful, don't spread invasive species!!

                        When a dog runs at you,whistle for him.
                        Henry David Thoreau

                        CL50-#23

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by backwoodsman
                          http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.s..._gas_lies.html

                          I was at a friends house a few weeks ago,we were sitting out in the shop talking when this guy comes walking in,he was from the gas company.He talked real fast,said this was his last stop,talked about how much money could be potentially made by letting them on the land,but the paper work would need to be signed that night because that was his last stop and he was heading back to Cleveland.He was politely turned down several times until he finally left.
                          After he left we talked about it.My friend is a farmer,he said it was kinda like playing the lottery,he wasn't interested in it because he wouldn't have to work for it and he didn't want to be left with the problems they would leave.
                          I left there feeling lucky to have these folks as my neighbors and friends.
                          I have heard that is just part of the high pressure tactics used by the "land men" to get you to sign a lease. Don't sign a lease until you do much research.There is no hurry, it will be awhile before they drill....no permits have been issued and the DEC staff is very small without funding .

                          The link below is from the a Tioga County Group. We got to them speak at the Cornell meeting 2 weeks ago. They were neither pro nor con, just informational. The link below is loaded with info.
                          The Tioga Gas Lease is the Tioga County Landowners Group and seeks to obtain the best possible gas lease and to provide educational resources about gas leasing in the Southern Tier of New York.
                          Be careful, don't spread invasive species!!

                          When a dog runs at you,whistle for him.
                          Henry David Thoreau

                          CL50-#23

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Currently,in NYS, if 60% of your neighbors in your section(1 square mile) sign a lease, THEY can drill horizontally under your land and take your gas. They will still have to pay you the minimum,I believe 12 1/2 % of the royalties.Even if you don't sign,it is a immanent domain type thing. Groups are trying to get that raised up to 20% range.
                            Drilling will start south towards PA first, the shale is better there for gas extraction. North or the line thru Ithaca, kind of marks where the currently profitable shale exists.
                            I don't think they are drilling the Marcellus Shale yet in NYS, there are other gas/oil wells not part of that formation, that have been in production for some time now.
                            Be careful, don't spread invasive species!!

                            When a dog runs at you,whistle for him.
                            Henry David Thoreau

                            CL50-#23

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Where my family and I own land in Tioga county , all of our neighbors have signed a lease so they will get gas from our property regardless of us signing. A man showed up at my moms house in bethlehem pa with a lease. I guess the company did not due a good job of due diligence because my mom and dad were still listed as the owners (my dad died about 15 years ago). He did come back a second day to talk with my brother and sister. Seemed to answer our questions. agreed to some addendums to the lease. I am having a lawyer look the lease over. We have not signed. Its a tough situation. The cabin on our property needs some work and with the financial situation of our family, coming up with money for improvements is difficult. The lease money would help us with property up keep and the royalties, if any, would just go back into the property. We do not see it as a get rich quick situation. You hate to see drilling but right now its happening in Tioga and there is alot of it happening in the area we have our property.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Be careful, the leases used to be 1 page documents, now that people have learned more, the leases can run into the dozens of pages.This is all to protect yourself,the landowner.
                                Checkout the tioga gas lease page I posted earlier, and ASK QUESTIONS And go to workshops.! The leases can run for decades!
                                Be careful, don't spread invasive species!!

                                When a dog runs at you,whistle for him.
                                Henry David Thoreau

                                CL50-#23

                                Comment

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