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  • #16
    This is outside my realm of solid understanding but I've always understood that there has been some speculation within the scientific community that birds (waterfowl) have played a role in the transport of fish eggs to land-locked water bodies that either have no outlet, or have a fish barrier on the outlet (i.e., a waterfall too tall to swim up). For years, the assumption was that eggs would become lodged in the feathers or on the feet of a bird when it landed on a water body where the eggs had been laid, then transported to the isolated water body when the bird relocated to that pond/lake.

    More recently, however, there's been an increased focus on looking instead at waterfowl digestive systems as the mode of transport- i.e., the bird eats a fish egg whole while on the waterbody where that egg was laid, then relocates to the isolated water body and poops the egg out, still whole and alive.

    A google search brings up no shortage of articles on the subject, with varying levels of support for or against the idea that waterfowl is somehow involved.

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    • #17
      Excellent!

      Yeah, I was guessing there must be some other transport mechanism.

      I thought I had heard people claim that fish (brook trout in particular) populated the Adirondacks as the glaciers receded by following the melt pathways and new formations of ponds/lakes, and that those populations had been there since then. But reading other information, that tends to make more sense to me, leads me to believe this to be rather improbable that those original populations could have survived until relatively recently considering eutrophication and freezing of small water bodies.

      I'm not sure I'm interested in the details of the forefront of the debate, just rather what is being investigated. I'm not near well versed enough on any of this to have any sort of real opinions.
      Last edited by montcalm; 03-12-2021, 10:04 AM.

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      • #18
        The Fat Lady of Limbourg
        Looked at the samples that you sent
        and Furrowed her Brow.

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        • #19

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          • #20
            Originally posted by DSettahr View Post
            This is outside my realm of solid understanding but I've always understood that there has been some speculation within the scientific community that birds (waterfowl) have played a role in the transport of fish eggs to land-locked water bodies that either have no outlet, or have a fish barrier on the outlet (i.e., a waterfall too tall to swim up). For years, the assumption was that eggs would become lodged in the feathers or on the feet of a bird when it landed on a water body where the eggs had been laid, then transported to the isolated water body when the bird relocated to that pond/lake.

            More recently, however, there's been an increased focus on looking instead at waterfowl digestive systems as the mode of transport- i.e., the bird eats a fish egg whole while on the waterbody where that egg was laid, then relocates to the isolated water body and poops the egg out, still whole and alive.

            A google search brings up no shortage of articles on the subject, with varying levels of support for or against the idea that waterfowl is somehow involved.
            Given that trout eggs are generally buried in gravel, it's unlikely any transport happens via waterfowl. That argument has been made with invasive fish like perch and shiners but it doesn't hold up. Most of these lake/pond systems were brook trout and/or lake trout monocultures since the glaciers receded. The introduction of yellow perch, etc happened after the area was settled. I don't think that's a coincidence. It is likely that many isolated bodies of water without connecting streams were devoid of brook trout originally. There was no way for them to migrate to them. We stock them today because all the original large systems degraded. Don't get me started on that.
            “Once there were brook trout in the streams in the mountains. They smelled of moss in your hand. On their backs were vermiculate patterns that were maps of the world in its becoming. Maps and mazes. Of a thing which could not be put back. Not be made right again. In the deep glens where they lived all things were older than man and they hummed of mystery.”
            ― Cormac McCarthy

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            • #21
              I should've clarified- I was mainly referring to how those isolated lakes/ponds were populated with fish originally. Over the timeframes involved since the ice age, even infinitesimally small chances of a rare occurrence can (and do) add up to a "pretty good" chance of that rare occurrence happening.

              I did some quick math, and given 100 potential visits per year to an isolated body of water by a bird traveling from another body of water, each with a one in a million chance of transporting eggs, the odds of it having happened at least once in the 11,700 years since the end of the ice age are 69%. In comparison, just to exemplify just how far outside the realm of easy comprehension 11 millennia is, you could play the lottery 100 times a year for your entire adult life (60 years) with the same odds of winning (one in a million) and your odds of winning at least once over those 60 years are only 0.6%.

              (Note that these are completely made up numbers for the sake of argument to show that even very unlikely events are bound to happen over long enough time periods.)

              I agree that in given the much shorter timeframe involved with the rise and subsequent fall of acid rain, humans are probably much more likely the culprit.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by DSettahr View Post
                I did some quick math, and given 100 potential visits per year to an isolated body of water by a bird traveling from another body of water, each with a one in a million chance of transporting eggs, the odds of it having happened at least once in the 11,700 years since the end of the ice age are 69%. In comparison, just to exemplify just how far outside the realm of easy comprehension 11 millennia is, you could play the lottery 100 times a year for your entire adult life (60 years) with the same odds of winning (one in a million) and your odds of winning at least once over those 60 years are only 0.6%.
                Drake equation applied to fish populations?


                But seriously, after looking at that lake data, I was seriously skeptical that many of those lakes/ponds that could have been rendered lifeless by acidification, were. There are a few that definitely were impacted, and probably sterilized, but all those had at least one outlet. I didn't notice any larger bodies of water that were sterilized (and were known to have healthy fish populations), or had a pH anywhere near dangerous.

                I'm also still curious about those particular lakes types and why they remain acidic. But perhaps I need to find some more modern data to know.


                Regarding the statistics again and the possibility of ONE of those hyrdrolocked ponds getting populated by a stray egg - what are the chances that could have turned to a breeding population and survived something like a freeze over all the years before humans interacted? Or simply running out of oxygen and not having any exit. My common sense hypothesis is still that if fish were there, humans put them there.
                Last edited by montcalm; 03-18-2021, 12:26 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by montcalm View Post
                  Drake equation applied to fish populations?
                  In a nutshell, pretty much. More or less the same argument.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by montcalm View Post
                    Drake equation applied to fish populations?


                    But seriously, after looking at that lake data, I was seriously skeptical that many of those lakes/ponds that could have been rendered lifeless by acidification, were. There are a few that definitely were impacted, and probably sterilized, but all those had at least one outlet. I didn't notice any larger bodies of water that were sterilized (and were known to have healthy fish populations), or had a pH anywhere near dangerous.

                    I'm also still curious about those particular lakes types and why they remain acidic. But perhaps I need to find some more modern data to know.

                    There are many papers that have been published in regard to acidification and the many variables involved. If I can find them I'll post a link.

                    Edit: Here are some links. Good reading for those interested in acidification:



                    https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/5024775 (Adk specific at 3.5)

                    https://www.sciencebase.gov/catalog/...b0518e35469517 (more on soil calcium depletion hindering recovery)

                    https://www.colgate.edu/media/13141/download (quick and worthwhile download)
                    Last edited by Glen; 03-22-2021, 12:54 PM.
                    “Once there were brook trout in the streams in the mountains. They smelled of moss in your hand. On their backs were vermiculate patterns that were maps of the world in its becoming. Maps and mazes. Of a thing which could not be put back. Not be made right again. In the deep glens where they lived all things were older than man and they hummed of mystery.”
                    ― Cormac McCarthy

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                    • #25
                      Many thanks, Glen. I'll take a look at all these.
                      Last edited by montcalm; 03-22-2021, 07:15 PM.

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                      • #26

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                        • #27
                          I read through a bit of those reports but haven't made it through all.

                          All related to Honnedaga Lake, which is interesting, but is a cold-water lake with inlets and outlets. It's an interesting study if you're interested in fish populations and how acid deposition affected them, but I was more curious about smaller bodies of water and the impact on their biodiversity due to acid precipitation.
                          Last edited by montcalm; 04-20-2021, 07:22 PM.

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                          • #28
                            Video series on Limnology.

                            https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCCB562CC37962BB0

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