Adirondack Forum  
Rules Membership Donations and Online Store Adkhighpeaks Foundation ADKhighpeaks Forums ADKhighpeaks Wiki Disclaimer

Go Back   Adirondack Forum > The Adirondack Forum > Hiking in the Adirondacks
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10-11-2020, 11:35 AM   #21
TrailBlaser
Member
 
TrailBlaser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Brewster, NY
Posts: 355
One of the things I like (and appreciate) is the lack of a permit system in the ADKs. I did the High Peaks I wanted to do many years ago, so I don't see myself going back there again. That being said, I see the need for something to be done for certain areas of the park. As was said, Lows is one; I would add Little Tupper too, just because of the parking situation alone. I just hope that whenever it is done, improvements are made and the system is tied to the UMP. If it is a "shotgun" approach, a one-size fits all, then I doubt it will be effective.
__________________
"Between every two pines is a doorway to a new world."
John Muir
TrailBlaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2020, 11:38 AM   #22
Wldrns
Member
 
Wldrns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Western Adirondacks
Posts: 4,237
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky13 View Post
The idea that you can send them somewhere else in the park is no longer valid.
I do not understand that statement. There were plenty of practically unoccupied trailheads and other access points this summer in other sectors of the park (albeit not in the high peaks) where suggestions can be made to go, or if not acceptable to them, then go home.
__________________
"Now I see the secret of making the best person, it is to grow in the open air and to eat and sleep with the earth." -Walt Whitman

Last edited by Wldrns; 10-11-2020 at 12:11 PM..
Wldrns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2020, 02:44 PM   #23
chairrock
Indian Mt.Club
 
chairrock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,671
When someones brother -in-law designs an online LNT/safety type class, test, and administrative system, that makes money for both the brother in law and the State....Just look at the recent changes to how the DEC administers sportsmen's licenses and classes now...compared to a few years ago...follow the money!
__________________
Be careful, don't spread invasive species!!

When a dog runs at you,whistle for him.
Henry David Thoreau

CL50-#23
chairrock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2020, 06:50 PM   #24
montcalm
Mobster
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,171
Quote:
Originally Posted by TCD View Post
The resource degradation comes in waves. The resource has been degraded before, and largely recovered. Most really long term Adirondack hikers (longer than my 38 years of hiking here) agree that things look much better now than they did in 1970, for example.
I finally actually agree with you too.

As far as I know the Adirondacks were a bit of a mess, recreationally speaking before the DEC started issuing UMP and designating areas by usage, etc..

In terms of actual resource damage - I'll argue that has never declined. Acid and Mercury rain continued to do extreme damage even when things looked like they were coming back in terms of forestation.

In terms of direct human impact, things are probably the lowest they have been in a couple hundred years.

The problems that we actually face are pretty minor, but the issue is number of users. The issues were not issues 20 years ago when use was much lower per unit. Now it has rapidly reached capacity, and beyond, so we see the chinks in the armor.

These issues really aren't all that hard to fix, but they require participation on a large scale.

Last edited by montcalm; 10-11-2020 at 08:24 PM..
montcalm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2020, 06:56 PM   #25
montcalm
Mobster
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wldrns View Post
So why does 100% of the population have to take the boat operator's certification course before 2025 if they want to operate a motor boat, regardless of age and years of experience? I don't know what enforcement of that will be like, but likely I will never need it other than the question of "do you have it?" when I touch the tiller of in a state owned boat.
Because people will do anything to drive those loud, disgusting machines. Just think about the rest of the hassle they are. They're expensive, not all that reliable, need to be towed around and/or stored. It's a hugely expensive endeavor - more so per hour/mile than a motor vehicle which requires a course and test to operate on public roads.

You have to realize our view on this is vastly different from the population who wants to drop those eye sores in the water, zoom around, play loud music and get drunk.
montcalm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2020, 07:05 PM   #26
chairrock
Indian Mt.Club
 
chairrock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,671
Quote:
Originally Posted by montcalm View Post
Because people will do anything to drive those loud, disgusting machines. Just think about the rest of the hassle they are. They're expensive, not all that reliable, need to be towed around and/or stored. It's a hugely expensive endeavor - more so per hour/mile than a motor vehicle which requires a course and test to operate on public roads.

You have to realize our view on this is vastly different from the population who wants to drop those eye sores in the water, zoom around, play loud music and get drunk.
Hahahahha let us know how you really feel!
__________________
Be careful, don't spread invasive species!!

When a dog runs at you,whistle for him.
Henry David Thoreau

CL50-#23
chairrock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2020, 07:14 PM   #27
TCD
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,881
Quote:
Originally Posted by montcalm View Post
Because people will do anything to drive those loud, disgusting machines. Just think about the rest of the hassle they are. They're expensive, not all that reliable, need to be towed around and/or stored. It's a hugely expensive endeavor - more so per hour/mile than a motor vehicle which requires a course and test to operate on public roads.

You have to realize our view on this is vastly different from the population who wants to drop those eye sores in the water, zoom around, play loud music and get drunk.
And I finally actually agree with you on this!

Everyone will appreciate this one: Coming back from Lake Placid to Keene the other day, we saw someone operating a motorboat on Lower Cascade Lake, which I believe is quite illegal. It was quite a surprise to see!
TCD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2020, 07:17 PM   #28
montcalm
Mobster
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,171
Quote:
Originally Posted by chairrock View Post
Hahahahha let us know how you really feel!
Yeah - I mean I feel the same about snow machines.

I've been down the road of mechanical recreation. It certainly attracts certain individuals (I won't stereotype all...) and it's a lot of hassle and financial burden.



I guess my slightly unbiased reaction might be that people will tolerate an awful lot for motorized access of something but almost nothing for hiking.

Last edited by montcalm; 10-11-2020 at 07:27 PM..
montcalm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2020, 08:15 PM   #29
Wldrns
Member
 
Wldrns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Western Adirondacks
Posts: 4,237
Quote:
Originally Posted by montcalm View Post
Yeah - I mean I feel the same about snow machines.
You can certainly add those plus ATVs along with jet skis to my own hate list. But again, as with emergency rescue boats (which I just certified in as an emergency operator during this past week), I recognize there is a certain aspect in life saving wherein some of those machines have a valued utility in the right responsible agency hands.
__________________
"Now I see the secret of making the best person, it is to grow in the open air and to eat and sleep with the earth." -Walt Whitman
Wldrns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2020, 09:07 PM   #30
saabrian
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 117
Online costs money to maintain. And presumably an app would have to be developed. There'd have to be an 800 number or something for people without internet access (or will they just be out of luck). And we're already turning badly overworked rangers into parking clerks. Now we want to add ticket taker too?

But the bigger questions are how are permits allocated? First come first serve? Will the same 50 people get permits for the Garden every weekend? Will people be limited to a certain number of permits each year? Between Memorial and Labor Day or Indigenous Peoples Day? Will there be any quota for locals? And obviously the big one: will people have to pay for the permits? And the corollaries: will NYS residents get them for free? A discount? And how do I show an app/emailed permit at a trailhead with no cell service?

With all the talk in hiking circles and others about inclusivity, a permitting system would have to be structured very carefully to avoid elitist consequences, however unintended. I don't see these complex issues being resolved in a few weeks.
__________________
Successful ascents: 115 (71 different) as of 11/29/20
Adirondack/Catskill fire tower challenge: 12/30
Adk 29er challenge: 11/29
Completed: Chester Challenge, Tupper Lake Triad
saabrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2020, 10:45 PM   #31
montcalm
Mobster
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,171
Yes - the system would cost some money, but in the grand scheme of NYS spending, not much IMO.

Perhaps rangers and stewards would see it different, but a permit would be no different than any patrolling one would do. It would just give them another means to boot people out. I don't think you'd ever be able to check even 50% of the permits offered, perhaps people will take advantage of that but if the fine is stiff enough and actually enforced in encounters, it may be enough to keep the vast majority honest.

Your second set of questions about exclusivity/elitism/etc are the most important IMO. They will not be solved in a few weeks, or even months. I don't know what the answer is there but surely they'll have to pay a few people to think about it for more than the 15 min I have to weigh all sorts of things and try to come up with a fair system. First come, first served with no limits will not cut it for this kind of thing IMO.
montcalm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2020, 07:05 AM   #32
Wldrns
Member
 
Wldrns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Western Adirondacks
Posts: 4,237
Rangers have long complained openly to me that their job has morphed to not what they originally signed up for. With more and more administrative duties and paperwork requirements piled upon them, they do not have the time to go out on patrol like in the past. That job function is relegated to AFRs, if they are even lucky enough to have one assigned. In some sectors where two rangers previously were be assigned, there is only one now, making the problem even worse, of course. There is a solution to that, but the state is not listening to Ranger Scott VanLaer.
__________________
"Now I see the secret of making the best person, it is to grow in the open air and to eat and sleep with the earth." -Walt Whitman
Wldrns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2020, 07:26 AM   #33
DuctTape
Out of Shape
 
DuctTape's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 1,883
I agree that Ranger Van Laer's solution should be heeded. I wonder if another solution should also be explored based on the morphing of the Ranger's job. Perhaps a new title/job description instead of just more rangers. What if other positions were created which could fulfill those morphed job requirements which do not necessitate the expertise of a forest ranger? Would be more cost effective and would put rangers back in the field doing "what they signed up for". Just thinking aloud here.
__________________
"There's a whisper on the night-wind, there's a star agleam to guide us, And the Wild is calling, calling . . . let us go." -from "The Call of the Wild" by Robert Service

My trail journal: DuctTape's Journal
DuctTape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2020, 09:08 AM   #34
montcalm
Mobster
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,171
What is Ranger Van Lear's solution for those of us not in the know?


Unfortunately it's not the state's job to listen to just one person. It the state's job to listen to the public or for the public to elect officials that make the decisions that the majority support. If one person wants to be heard, they need to make their idea known to the public and gain support.
montcalm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2020, 09:29 AM   #35
Wldrns
Member
 
Wldrns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Western Adirondacks
Posts: 4,237
Quote:
Originally Posted by montcalm View Post
What is Ranger Van Lear's solution for those of us not in the know?
https://twitter.com/ScottvanLaer
"Postings related to NYS Forest Rangers are in my capacity as a union delegate for PBA of NYS and do not represent the position, strategy or opinion of NYS DEC."

Quote:
Originally Posted by montcalm View Post
If one person wants to be heard, they need to make their idea known to the public and gain support.
If you bother to look, there are a number of articles by and about Scott on the public Adirondack Almanack web page (and in other publications), stating his position. Simply do a search for Scott VanLaer.

https://www.adirondackalmanack.com/s...laer&sa=Search
__________________
"Now I see the secret of making the best person, it is to grow in the open air and to eat and sleep with the earth." -Walt Whitman
Wldrns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2020, 09:59 AM   #36
montcalm
Mobster
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,171
I don’t use and will not use Twitter. I’ve read a number his articles but t none in my past experience were related to administrative changes. His articles used to be adventure related on the almanac. I’ll give it a look
montcalm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2020, 10:18 AM   #37
Wldrns
Member
 
Wldrns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Western Adirondacks
Posts: 4,237
I detest twitter and facebook, am not and will not join either. I don't even participate in texting and request from friends that any communication with me is through email or actual voice instead.

But to address the question at large, listen to Scott here, be sure to advance the video to begin at 13:20 to avoid earlier irrelevant discussions on the channel:

https://nynow.wmht.org/blogs/environ...forst-rangers/
__________________
"Now I see the secret of making the best person, it is to grow in the open air and to eat and sleep with the earth." -Walt Whitman
Wldrns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2020, 11:47 AM   #38
saabrian
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 117
Rather than wasting the special training of forest rangers, why not use EnCon police for permit verification and sheriff deputies for parking ticket issuing. They are enforcement issues anyways.

It corresponds with DEC police mission "to protect and enhance the environment and natural resources of the State of New York while also protecting the health and safety of its people through the enforcement of Environmental Conservation and related laws and public education."

I do hope permitting remains free. At worst, maybe a small yearly or 12-monthly fee (less for state residents). Because if the state sees it as a revenue generator, they're going to expand it to the entire forest preserve, not just the "overcrowded" parts, and it's going to ruin egalitarian ethos of hiking in the Adirondacks. Permitting should address overcrowding, not budgeting.
__________________
Successful ascents: 115 (71 different) as of 11/29/20
Adirondack/Catskill fire tower challenge: 12/30
Adk 29er challenge: 11/29
Completed: Chester Challenge, Tupper Lake Triad
saabrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2020, 05:31 PM   #39
montcalm
Mobster
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,171
A couple things I can think of:

LEOs are not widespread in the Adirondacks, but technically, if it's a town road, the town should enforce parking issues.

Just anecdotally last time I went to EHP I parked illegally along LOJ road. This is before they had put up the signs and everyone was parked there. I really didn't find the hike I did all that crowded at all. I've hiked a small mountain like Bald near OF mid summer and been in hiker hell. They increased the size of that lot substantially and I even parked on Rondaxe rd for that. I should have just went somewhere else. The parking area there is sized well large enough for crowding. Anyway, I don't know what happened in that parking situation on Loj rd, but it was not being enforced. I'm not sure if the towns OR the DEC have resources for this kind of thing.

Ideally the above would not be an issue with permits. You'd get a permit for a TH and the TH would be sized to accommodate enough vehicles for the permits issued plus space for emergency vehicles. Adjusting the parking areas would be a major area of cost, but the state seems to be relying on lack of parking to try to limit use instead of understanding how much use they want in each area and sizing parking accordingly. Again, some of these things were not issues 20 years ago so no one questioned it.

As to the ECOs, I'm not sure why we'd want a specific group to check permits. It would be ideal for anyone working for the DEC to check permits, detain a delinquent group and have the ECO(s) in the region issue citation and follow through with the enforcement paperwork.

I'd kind of envision that they'd have a few extra staff moved on to this until they could get it under control. Once the public knows about and respects the system, you won't need as much enforcement.

I kind of was equating this to speeding. Majority of drivers keep within 10mph of the speed limit where they won't readily be ticketed. A small percentage speed regularly but Troopers generally only "sample" this population a few times a month. It doesn't catch everyone or keep people from speeding, but it keeps the number of offenders fairly low and doesn't require constant monitoring. Perhaps that's false equivalency but I was thinking in terms of human psychology.


Edit to add:

More parking sizing examples: If you go to Lila parking lot and it's full to the brim, go elsewhere, it's sized about right for all of those sites. If you go to Lows and the parking is all the way out to Horseshoe lake you'll probably still find a good site even if you can't find a safe place to park.

Last edited by montcalm; 10-12-2020 at 05:48 PM..
montcalm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2020, 07:59 PM   #40
montcalm
Mobster
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wldrns View Post
I detest twitter and facebook, am not and will not join either. I don't even participate in texting and request from friends that any communication with me is through email or actual voice instead.

But to address the question at large, listen to Scott here, be sure to advance the video to begin at 13:20 to avoid earlier irrelevant discussions on the channel:

https://nynow.wmht.org/blogs/environ...forst-rangers/
OK I watched this.

All I get is they are asking for more Rangers.

I get that, to some degree, but I also think perhaps the job of Ranger should be a higher level job and they should have more (human) resources i.e. AFRs and Stewards.

I hate to say this, because it has negative connotations, but really these jobs can and should be filled seasonally by college students. It's what's been done, but it could be more widespread for the small amount they pay them. It's kind of a dream job for a kid who's into the outdoors: it gives you income for the summer and it will certainly be a high point on a resume. It's not a career. Some of those kids may go on to be rangers, foresters, guides, etc... I don't always love the idea of these non-career jobs but they can certainly help get the job done within tighter budgets that need to be spent on infrastructure.

Then the Rangers jobs are mainly for managing AFRs and Stewards, S&R, and enforcement.

That's just my thought to keep the state well staffed but within budget. I'd assume it takes no more than a week to train these kids and if you get some good ones they'll come back 4 years throughout undergrad college. I'd even go so far as to offer these individuals free tuition and free room and board at state schools.
montcalm is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.

DISCLAIMER: Use of these forums, and information found herein, is at your own risk. Use of this site by members and non-members alike is only granted by the adkhighpeak.com administration provided the terms and conditions found in the FULL DISCLAIMER have been read. Continued use of this site implies that you have read, understood and agree to the terms and conditions of this site. Any questions can be directed to the Administrator of this site.