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Old 10-09-2020, 09:02 AM   #1
cpoit
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Permits Coming?

Hi All,
I've been reading recently about the DEC might start requiring permits in the High Peaks Region due to conservation efforts. Does anyone know how soon this may start or how it will be enforced? Just wondering how far in advance you will need to request a permit and how it will be regulated.
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Old 10-09-2020, 12:25 PM   #2
montcalm
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I've seen a few headlines for this but neglected to read. No idea what they will do but my guess is it will be regulated like anything is: the Rangers and Stewards on duty will patrol and ask to see your permit.

They won't catch everyone, but it should help regulate use. Sure needs to happen because you can't even find a place to park to hike out there. I know this year is especially bad, but it's been that way for years.
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Old 10-09-2020, 12:27 PM   #3
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I think they should also start requiring permits for lean to and roadside site use as well, in all of the forest preserve. Perhaps this will tie some accountability to people using these facilities.

For those of us that don't trash them, it should be no change except you'll need to plan where you stay or plan to stay at a tent site (not sure how they'd regulate something like NLPT though...).
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Old 10-09-2020, 12:42 PM   #4
TCD
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...I've been reading recently about the DEC might start requiring permits in the High Peaks Region...
Lengthy discussion here:

https://www.adkhighpeaks.com/forums/...irs#post507928

Bottom line; I would not expect to see it soon.
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Old 10-09-2020, 12:54 PM   #5
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Places like the Pepperbox and five Ponds and other western wilderness areas that I frequent would be quite impossible to monitor with their multiple access points from many directions. I believe I will be safe in my normal habits. Besides, many of the rangers are my personal friends.
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Old 10-09-2020, 02:19 PM   #6
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Places like the Pepperbox and five Ponds and other western wilderness areas that I frequent would be quite impossible to monitor with their multiple access points from many directions. I believe I will be safe in my normal habits. Besides, many of the rangers are my personal friends.
Wait a second here...

So you're suggesting they would put personal friendship over upholding the law ?
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Old 10-09-2020, 02:29 PM   #7
Wldrns
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Wait a second here...

So you're suggesting they would put personal friendship over upholding the law ?
Not at all, absolutely not, I only mention that I happen to personally know many rangers, through many years of operating with them in my personal hikes in the regions, and through SAR. They have always been extremely helpful to me and recognize me even at the upper management level. Far be it for me to every jeopardize any relationship I have with them by skirting any portion of the law. And they know that I uphold every portion of the law and are helpful to them whenever I can be.

Don't be ridiculous with your outlandish suggestion.

There are very few registered trailheads where I go. Most people around here simply park (or be dropped off) at any one of nearly infinite number of legal roadside pull outs to gain access to the wild lands, unlike the few restrictive access gateway trailheads to the high peaks region.
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Old 10-09-2020, 02:46 PM   #8
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Five ponds doesn't have the same issues as EHP, but it has its own issues.

Lows, Stillwater and sometimes Inlet suffer from overuse/crowding. Much of Cranberry shore is heavily used, especially during the summer.

This may not affect you, but it certainly is something we should consider rectifying in the future. Stillwater has its own system, which I guess is what it is. To me it's a motor boat hell, so it was probably a necessity. Lows really needs better parking. There are enough sites out there to satisfy a large number of users, but the parking area is ridiculously undersized to utilize all those sites. The next issue is lack of firewood at those sites because they are heavily used, which then begs users to bring their own (which isn't hard because of the short carry over the dam).

Inlet is probably the least of concerns in 5 ponds access points, but really that lot is not even adequately sized to the number of sites accessed from that area.

Users of the shore sites on Cranberry should be encouraged to bring their own firewood. Those sites get cleaned out just as much as the ones on Lows, if not more so.
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Old 10-09-2020, 02:47 PM   #9
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Ok Paul , I was just wondering , you were kinda vague there . Thanks for... clarifying .

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Old 10-09-2020, 05:33 PM   #10
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Motorboats on Stillwater, if they are smart, are confined to the "safe" well known channels away from shoreline shoals and ancient tree stumps. Paddlers can easily negotiate these "hazardous" waters. It has been a long time since I have made use of the numbered shoreline campsite system there, canoeing either solo or with family and kids. More recently I have often headed into the backcountry off trail, well away from the motor boat hell into the small lake/pond interior of the Pepperbox and Five Ponds. I don't think that a bushwhack visit to the Cowboy Beaver Meadow waterfalls would ever be subject to a permit system.
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Old 10-10-2020, 08:56 AM   #11
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Old 10-10-2020, 09:15 AM   #12
poconoron
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Long overdue..................the resource is being degraded horribly.
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Old 10-10-2020, 03:52 PM   #13
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Long overdue..................
I finally agree with you on something Ron.
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Old 10-10-2020, 09:35 PM   #14
saabrian
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I don't think permitting is coming any time soon. Definitely not 2020 and probably not 2021. Too much is needed to be done and more staffing is needed to implement and enforce (something the DEC figure head is adamantly against).
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Old 10-11-2020, 08:32 AM   #15
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Too much is needed to be done and more staffing is needed to implement and enforce (something the DEC figure head is adamantly against).
Say what?

This could be done with absolutely no change in resources. It could be done online and enforcement done the same as is enforcement of anything is done.

99% of people will honor the system - so random checks when Rangers or Stewards run into hikers will help enforce. Even if 5% of people cheat and don't use the permits, and don't get caught, it will still significantly reduce usage.

The only qualm I have not quite grasped is how to "fairly" distribute usage and make it so the same people don't abuse the permit system by constantly grabbing them up - but perhaps limits could be set and tied to your license or the like. Or when does the window open for acquiring a permit? How far in advance can one reserve one?

So my previous ramblings did have some actual point... if we force people out of one area, and they have time and motive for recreating in the park, then they will likely invade other areas. Some of which are not necessarily ready to handle to more use than they currently have. This then forces the system to a wider scope.
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Old 10-11-2020, 09:26 AM   #16
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I don't necessarily agree with any wide scope proposed land use/hiking permit system, although something clearly needs to be done in the High Peaks area to protect both the environment and the inexperienced from themselves.

If a permit system is instituted, how about a required training certification before receiving the permit, similar to the NY motor boat operator's certification requirement that is now in place? Although the boater's course is not yet required for me at my current age, I took it anyway because I may sometimes have opportunity to operate state owned craft for SAR, and L2R for example. I found the boater's course requirement intrusive and overkill, since I have freely operated a motor boat by myself since I was about 12 years old. My problem with the course was that it was too all inclusive and parts unnecessary. As a paddler, with the exception of a state inflatable SAR rescue boat and a L2R supply boat, I have not widely used a motor boat in nearly 30 years. I don't need to know and be tested about the extra detailed rules specifically meant for what needs to be carried by large motor boats larger than 16 feet long, for example. Though for my own protection, knowing the general rules of the road regarding them could be covered briefly.

A level of use certification set would make a lot more sense. A hiker's certification does not need to go to the detail level required to get a guide's license, but it could cover the most important aspects of environmental law, safety, and LNT.
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Old 10-11-2020, 10:02 AM   #17
montcalm
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I think a certification is a pipe dream both from a resource and user standpoint. Who is going to take the time to do this? Who is going to do all the training? Then when it does become enforced, what is the penalty for not having a license?

And it really fails to address the major concern which is overcrowding/overuse.

Fact of the matter is this: many people have spent a lot of time promoting the outdoor experience and have felt that, like fossil fuels and our environment, is an inexhaustible resource, but when users increase, we see how little we really have in terms of public land with regard to the population. Even a small fraction of the population of NYC could easily overrun the current development level of the Adirondacks. When city populations have more free time for recreation and/or cannot or do not want to do things in the city, then other areas will feel the strain. And although it will be easy to say they don't have this right, based on our kneejerk reactions... they do. These people have often unwittingly funded our public lands and are now only having the means to access. California has had the same issues with its public lands and has had permits/reservations for years.

I honestly don't like the lack of freedom this brings, but we have to be realistic with regards to the tristate region. And obviously the most scenic and popular areas will be the first to feel the brunt of the force from this exodus.
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Old 10-11-2020, 10:23 AM   #18
Wldrns
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I think a certification is a pipe dream both from a resource and user standpoint. Who is going to take the time to do this? Who is going to do all the training? Then when it does become enforced, what is the penalty for not having a license?
So why does 100% of the population have to take the boat operator's certification course before 2025 if they want to operate a motor boat, regardless of age and years of experience? I don't know what enforcement of that will be like, but likely I will never need it other than the question of "do you have it?" when I touch the tiller of in a state owned boat.
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Old 10-11-2020, 11:08 AM   #19
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Long overdue..................the resource is being degraded horribly.
The resource degradation comes in waves. The resource has been degraded before, and largely recovered. Most really long term Adirondack hikers (longer than my 38 years of hiking here) agree that things look much better now than they did in 1970, for example.

We are certainly in another wave of resource degradation today. The cause is a change in the hiker population, and a total failure of current management to work with the current reality.

So I completely agree that better management is long overdue.

And I stand by my posts on the ADKHighPeaks thread regarding what's needed to better manage this area. There is a lot that needs to be done better, and differently.

But as I wrote over there, I think a permit system is not going to be particularly helpful for a number of reasons. And the other major pillars of a proper management program (Parking; Bathrooms; Front Country Stewards; Rangers; Trail Redesign and Maintenance) would be of far greater and more immediate benefit to the resource than a permit system would be.

It's emblematic of the current failed management that they want to jump to something that was tried before, was botched, didn't work, and will likely be of minimal benefit; all the while refusing to consider things that are simple and obviously immediately beneficial.
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Old 10-11-2020, 11:14 AM   #20
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Currently, NY Limits permits for extended camping to one per area per year, that would seem fair in terms of High Peaks Permits.

The idea that you can send them somewhere else in the park is no longer valid. The Park was crowded this summer, and if the border opens up, it will be more crowded. With the Revenue needs of NY, I would anticipate some form of resident/non-resident user fee system coming down the pike.
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