Adirondack Forum  
Rules Membership Donations and Online Store Adkhighpeaks Foundation ADKhighpeaks Forums ADKhighpeaks Wiki Disclaimer

Go Back   Adirondack Forum > Current Affairs and Environmental Issues > Environmental Issues
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 06-28-2021, 11:47 AM   #21
Cold River Bob
Bob in the Sewards
 
Cold River Bob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 473
Wen we were in Calkins brook a couple weeks ago the guy I hike with is a logger . He stopped an was looking at something an I came over an he said you know what that is ? I did They are in there I've seen them around my land here in the Southern tier,
Cold River Bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2021, 02:48 PM   #22
backwoodsman
Member
 
backwoodsman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cold River Bob View Post
another way they are spreading is from the log tucks taking ash to the mills.
Yes , it's a messy business, then after unloading the logs they get run through a debarker and everything goes flying and the log truck goes back down the road bouncing debris off the frame rails.
I don't remember what thread it was but this was discussed on here years ago when the EAB firewood rules first took affect.
The 50 mile radius for firewood could be seen as an effective way of spreading the problem , in one hour you could move the problem from Utica to Old Forge , just as an example.
backwoodsman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2021, 03:05 PM   #23
St.Regis
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,466
Quote:
Originally Posted by geogymn View Post
The gypsies are consuming the Basswoods in my woods, also Apple.
Oswego County: GMs are going after oak, maple, aspen, birch, alder, and beech. Some sections of woods have taken a beating. It's also very dry and hot, so I imagine defoliated trees and shrubs are really stressed
St.Regis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2021, 08:55 PM   #24
Schultzz
Low Impact Skidder
 
Schultzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,021
Quote:
Originally Posted by backwoodsman View Post
Yes , it's a messy business, then after unloading the logs they get run through a debarker and everything goes flying and the log truck goes back down the road bouncing debris off the frame rails.
I don't remember what thread it was but this was discussed on here years ago when the EAB firewood rules first took affect.
The 50 mile radius for firewood could be seen as an effective way of spreading the problem , in one hour you could move the problem from Utica to Old Forge , just as an example.
Most state DEC's figure that if it is in the state already then it's too late to prevent it from starting but hopefully they can "contain" it within fifty mile radius. The purple bag traps tell them where the invasive species are. I sell kiln dried wood at a very reasonable price by selling thousands of bundles and they retail it for around $6.50 to $7.00 a bundle. My wood gets at least 250 degrees f for 30 some hours where kiln treated wood is only heated enough to kill the larvae. My friend in the Southern Tier sells "Bundle of Warmth" and used to supply all the Lowes stores east of the Mississippi. He was one of the first in the country to bear the USDA stamp and reg.number. Kiln dried wood has many advantages which I am not going to "bore" you with here. But the EAB has decimated the ash wood business in this country. Sad.
__________________
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Will Drag You Down To Their Level And Beat You With Experience.
Schultzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2021, 09:25 AM   #25
richard1726
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: 06333 & Pittsburg, Berlin GR, Edmonton
Posts: 469
I just observed the cutting of several large ash trees. These trees failed to leaf-out in 2019, were 81 years old and 38, 40, 42 inches in diameter. other than no leaves they looked ok. when they hit the rocky ground 100% of the bark literally exploded off them. we won't take any of that fire wood anywhere.
richard1726 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2021, 02:40 PM   #26
chairrock
Indian Mt.Club
 
chairrock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,706
Took a ride around Seneca Lake area yesterday. Lots of bug damage, looked like early spring with few leaves on many trees. My property in Yates County is taking a pounding...EAB and GMs.
__________________
Be careful, don't spread invasive species!!

When a dog runs at you,whistle for him.
Henry David Thoreau

CL50-#23
chairrock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2021, 06:43 PM   #27
peskypup
Member
 
peskypup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NJ / Brant Lake
Posts: 235
The first confirmed EAB infestation inside the blue line was found just down the road from me last summer, in the town of Chester. A state DOT worker noticed the damaged trees at the Warren County Canoe Launch on the Schroon River and contacted the DEC, which confirmed the infestation. Based on the extent of the damage, they estimated the EAB had been in the area for a few years already. They didn't even both treating or removing the trees, because they figured it had been here too long and already spread.

https://www.adirondackexplorer.org/s...in-adirondacks
peskypup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2021, 06:54 PM   #28
Crash
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 144
In 2006, there was an awful tent caterpillar infestation in the area. I think the infestation was in early summer. By August, the caterpillars were gone and the trees re-leafed, but the second leafing was quite weak. I took my boys for a hike up Bear Mountain near Cranberry Lake. The re-leafed trees were an odd sight. Here you can see the weak leaves of the trees on Bear Mountain (overlooking Cranberry Lake's Dead Creek Flow in the background).
DSCN3669.jpg

Infestations like this have happened in the past and the trees have adapted to handle them.
Crash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2021, 10:32 PM   #29
Schultzz
Low Impact Skidder
 
Schultzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,021
"Infestations like this have happened in the past and the trees have adapted to handle them."
Ash trees do not "handle" the EAB invasive species, they just die and do not return. I suggest you read up on invasive species in this country. They are causing billions of lost dollars to the lumber industry, and becoming a headache to many residential communities within the park and through out the US.
__________________
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Will Drag You Down To Their Level And Beat You With Experience.
Schultzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2021, 11:10 PM   #30
St.Regis
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,466
Local park here is doing preemptive cutting of all ash trees. I bet 1/4 of the trees in the park are 2+ foot dbh ash. It sure will look different when they are gone
St.Regis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2021, 03:09 AM   #31
serotonin
ember
 
serotonin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,375
Verily, we must Choppeth them up...
and Stompeth them down.
__________________
The engine runs on glue and tar.
Eat bark, baby.
I'm Worse in Person.
serotonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2021, 03:11 AM   #32
serotonin
ember
 
serotonin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,375
Quote:
Originally Posted by serotonin View Post
Verily, we must Choppeth them up...
and Stompeth them down.

It'll sure look Ugly for a thousand years.
__________________
The engine runs on glue and tar.
Eat bark, baby.
I'm Worse in Person.
serotonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2021, 09:01 AM   #33
Crash
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schultzz View Post
"Infestations like this have happened in the past and the trees have adapted to handle them."
Ash trees do not "handle" the EAB invasive species, they just die and do not return. I suggest you read up on invasive species in this country. They are causing billions of lost dollars to the lumber industry, and becoming a headache to many residential communities within the park and through out the US.
Infestations like the caterpillars have happened in the past and I assume that's why the trees evolved multiple leafings. It's possible (and I would guess even likely) that something similar will happen with ash trees. It'll just part of the evolution of the ash genome.

In order for the genome to evolve, a significant portion of the individual tree that do not have favorable characteristics (perhaps well over 99%) die off, leaving behind those that have "mutations" that are favorable to protecting itself from EAB. Sure its painful to watch. Maybe it'll take thousands of years before ash forests can become viable across large regions again.

Just as mankind has "interfered" with nature by bringing the EAB to this country, mankind may also "interfere" with nature by helping ash trees evolve at a faster pace through gene splicing in an effort to create a better genome.
Crash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2021, 11:13 AM   #34
serotonin
ember
 
serotonin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash View Post
Sure its painful to watch. Maybe it'll take thousands of years before ash forests can become viable across large regions again.



Who cares...?
__________________
The engine runs on glue and tar.
Eat bark, baby.
I'm Worse in Person.
serotonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2021, 12:45 PM   #35
montcalm
Mobster
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,674
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash View Post
Infestations like the caterpillars have happened in the past and I assume that's why the trees evolved multiple leafings. It's possible (and I would guess even likely) that something similar will happen with ash trees. It'll just part of the evolution of the ash genome.

In order for the genome to evolve, a significant portion of the individual tree that do not have favorable characteristics (perhaps well over 99%) die off, leaving behind those that have "mutations" that are favorable to protecting itself from EAB. Sure its painful to watch. Maybe it'll take thousands of years before ash forests can become viable across large regions again.

Just as mankind has "interfered" with nature by bringing the EAB to this country, mankind may also "interfere" with nature by helping ash trees evolve at a faster pace through gene splicing in an effort to create a better genome.
I suspect this will be like most of other invasive encounters in the past two centuries - it's going to kill 99% of the trees it affects. Chestnut, Elm, Beech... all the same. Different pathogens, similar impacts to the ecosystems.

Trees are incredibly versatile, in some cases forcing their own genetic selection in response to pathogens. Transposons, or transposable genes are active in many plants. Once in a while this strategy works and resistant strains can develop. We are really just starting to understand this reality in that genetics and environment are almost inseparable despite the traditional "nature vs nurture" dichotomy. It's also shown that mechanisms like this actually speed species change through evolution in response to major changes in environment. So called punctuated equilibrium. Us intervening may speed the process such as in Chestnut repopulation and Beech management. The idea is we can cheat what would, or may take thousands of years to reestablish.

Hard to say if our intervention to fix our mistakes is the right move. Law of unintended consequences says there will be negative impacts of this - but again, negative to who? Our lens is us and our economy. We see these impacts and it frustrates us but really it's a much bigger picture, one that we won't fully understand, and maybe neither will the next generation...
montcalm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2021, 06:12 PM   #36
Schultzz
Low Impact Skidder
 
Schultzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,021
After a forest fire burns all the available fuel, two things happen. Biochar is created and a new forest begins. Unfortunately WE likely will not see it to fruition, but someone will benefit from it. We can only hope
that new Ash tree species will be among the new generation growth. I hope then someone else will care.
__________________
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Will Drag You Down To Their Level And Beat You With Experience.
Schultzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2021, 06:35 PM   #37
montcalm
Mobster
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,674
It's not even that people don't care - some do, but these kind of things are going to happen. They're inevitable if we trade things globally. Same with pandemics. These things aren't new, they go back to the Silk Road.

Isolation creates specialization and genetic islands. When we, or something else, break these barriers, we have new interactions that may be unfavorable for certain species. The more intermixed the globe becomes, the more of this we will see.

We aren't really unique in this way either - natural changes have always done this sort of thing but humans can really accelerate the effects and we tend to not like the lack of a quick, short-term fix.

Last edited by montcalm; 07-02-2021 at 09:24 PM..
montcalm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2021, 05:36 AM   #38
Tug Hill
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 265
I’m an Industrial Forester who worked for the largest Timberland Manager In NY, (270,000 acres under management) I’ve have not yet seen any evidence of the EAB in the core forest of Tug Hill. So the harvest prescription on the 30,000 acres we manage there, is to continue harvesting on a sustainable basis, by cutting only, unacceptable growing stock , at risk, and mature saw timber sized White Ash trees.We can only hope there are other isolated pockets of Ash trees that may be spared from this infestation.
Tug Hill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2021, 09:00 AM   #39
backwoodsman
Member
 
backwoodsman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 327
In 2019 there were 11 counties that hadn't confirmed EAB , now there are 4 . Lewis , Hamilton , Essex , and Washington.
backwoodsman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2021, 11:58 AM   #40
montcalm
Mobster
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,674
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tug Hill View Post
I’m an Industrial Forester who worked for the largest Timberland Manager In NY, (270,000 acres under management) I’ve have not yet seen any evidence of the EAB in the core forest of Tug Hill. So the harvest prescription on the 30,000 acres we manage there, is to continue harvesting on a sustainable basis, by cutting only, unacceptable growing stock , at risk, and mature saw timber sized White Ash trees.We can only hope there are other isolated pockets of Ash trees that may be spared from this infestation.
What is the basal area percentage of Ash in the 30k acres?

What are the %s of other species?
montcalm is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.

DISCLAIMER: Use of these forums, and information found herein, is at your own risk. Use of this site by members and non-members alike is only granted by the adkhighpeak.com administration provided the terms and conditions found in the FULL DISCLAIMER have been read. Continued use of this site implies that you have read, understood and agree to the terms and conditions of this site. Any questions can be directed to the Administrator of this site.