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Old 02-19-2016, 05:37 PM   #41
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"Clearcut logging is strictly enforced." Is that a fact? Even on private land within the park?
It's a fact, Geo.
Clear cutting is held to a very small area, even on privately held land.
Check the ADK Park Agency regulations to get the facts for logging on privately held properties within the park.
Jim
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Old 02-19-2016, 06:47 PM   #42
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DS, Thanks for that great explanation! I'm afraid that all I ever witnessed is the "high grade" harvesting technique around here. I have a neighbor that had his land harvested this way and 20 years later (today) the forest still looks sick. They took all the grandfathers and left the sick and dying; albeit the woodpeckers like it. Between the Beech saplings crowding everything else out and the deer eating the rest, the forest is a mess. Not to mention the invasives along the fringe.
Funny a generation ago I thought clear cutting was an anathema but now I see different.
Again, thanks for taking the time to enlighten me. Geo
PS. The APA doesn't dictate type of harvesting technique do they?
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Old 02-19-2016, 06:53 PM   #43
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HS, Thanks! But it sounds like clear cut is preferable to high grading, no?
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Old 02-19-2016, 07:14 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by geogymn View Post
DS, Thanks for that great explanation! I'm afraid that all I ever witnessed is the "high grade" harvesting technique around here. I have a neighbor that had his land harvested this way and 20 years later (today) the forest still looks sick. They took all the grandfathers and left the sick and dying; albeit the woodpeckers like it. Between the Beech saplings crowding everything else out and the deer eating the rest, the forest is a mess. Not to mention the invasives along the fringe.
Funny a generation ago I thought clear cutting was an anathema but now I see different.
Again, thanks for taking the time to enlighten me. Geo
PS. The APA doesn't dictate type of harvesting technique do they?
No, the APA cannot force you to choose a particular harvesting technique. They just mandate the permit in the case of clearcutting. And high grading isn't illegal, either.

To be clear, I don't think that clearcuts are always appropriate- as with any legitimate harvest technique, there are situations where they are indefensible from an ecological, a social, or an economical perspective. What matters is the context.
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Old 02-19-2016, 07:58 PM   #45
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Alas, My hat is off to Paul Smiths and ESF and the ilk.
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Old 02-20-2016, 04:21 PM   #46
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DS, Thanks for that great explanation! I'm afraid that all I ever witnessed is the "high grade" harvesting technique around here. I have a neighbor that had his land harvested this way and 20 years later (today) the forest still looks sick. They took all the grandfathers and left the sick and dying; albeit the woodpeckers like it. Between the Beech saplings crowding everything else out and the deer eating the rest, the forest is a mess. Not to mention the invasives along the fringe.
Funny a generation ago I thought clear cutting was an anathema but now I see different.
Again, thanks for taking the time to enlighten me. Geo
PS. The APA doesn't dictate type of harvesting technique do they?
Geo,
The landowner has the control of the size of the tree to be harvested, my policy was hire a professional, to "range" the tract to be cut, mark the trees to be taken and lay out access "skidder" roads.
The logger is required to work with the ADK to take precautions on crossing fragile water courses.
The landowner has total control of the loggers' operation.
Hiring an independent professional ranger will obviously cost the landowner money, detracting from the profit of the operation
Never, ever turn a logger loose on your woodlot as evidenced by your experience.
Jim
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Old 02-20-2016, 05:05 PM   #47
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A copy of the NY State BMPs for timber harvesting is available online, for anyone interested in reading through it. It is interesting to note that a lot of the techniques for constructing sustainable forest roads and skid trails are similar to those used in the construction of sustainable recreational trails: http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/lands_for...lfbmpguide.pdf

I agree with Hard Scrabble- anyone interested in implementing forestry practices on their property would be wise to hire a consulting forester. It is an added expense, but it can prevent serious mistakes from occurring that will lower productivity and decrease health in the forested stands on your property. From an economic perspective, such mistakes may even lower property values in the long run should a landowner ever decide to sell the land, so they are good to avoid if and when possible.

A good consulting forester won't tell you what to do with your land- they'll listen to what your objectives and goals for the property are, and then tell you the best way to go about achieving those goals, and inform you of any potential negative consequences of your actions. The final choice, ultimately, is always left up to the landowner.

In defense of loggers, not all of them are eager to cut anything and everything regardless of the long term consequences. Many of them are quite conscientious of environmental issues associated with logging. However, their training is often more vocational in nature- knowing how to efficiently and safely cut and remove timber doesn't necessarily translate to knowing how to choose trees to cut that are in the best interests of the stand in the long term.
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Old 02-20-2016, 07:24 PM   #48
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Geo,
The landowner has the control of the size of the tree to be harvested, my policy was hire a professional, to "range" the tract to be cut, mark the trees to be taken and lay out access "skidder" roads.
The logger is required to work with the ADK to take precautions on crossing fragile water courses.
The landowner has total control of the loggers' operation.
Hiring an independent professional ranger will obviously cost the landowner money, detracting from the profit of the operation
Never, ever turn a logger loose on your woodlot as evidenced by your experience.
Jim
Oh man! The guys that logged my neighbors (outside the blue line) were quintessential butchers. I'm not privy to the contract but it must of been something like I will give you x amount of dollars for removing x amount of trees from your property.
These guys mess up the land terribly with deep ruts, scarred trees and wasteful downing of trees. I saw numerous trees dropped and left because they must of been discovered substandard after the felling of said tree.
They cut dozens of sizable Hemlocks to aid in creek crossings which were left after use. To this day I walk by these piles of Hemlock and get sick by the wanton waste of these once mighty trees.
I approached the owner and clued him into the destruction befallen his land .
He said, " I'm trying to put the kids through college". What could I say, how could I begrudge a man who is struggling to do the best he can?
My only hope is that his kids acquire a land ethic whilst in college and in the future saves more of the environment than was used for their education.
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Old 02-20-2016, 07:25 PM   #49
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DS, Thanks for the link.
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Old 02-21-2016, 01:30 PM   #50
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In NY, if land is undeveloped, is un-fenced, is apparently unused, and is not posted against trespass, than it isn't illegal to enter onto that land. Doing so is a privilege, though- meaning that the landowner can ask you to leave at any time, at which point you are trespassing if you refuse to do so.
I've always disliked this. It forces/encourages landowners to throw up fences when they otherwise wouldn't and also leads to those trashy neon yellow posted signs all over the place... every 100 feet or whatever it is, on every tree. Such an eye sore and so unnecessary.

I'd prefer it if instead of the default being "go ahead and assume it is ok to enter land unless you have reason to believe otherwise" that the default was something more like "don't assume you can enter land unless you know it is public or have permission." That's certainly the way I've always operated, and just strikes me as common courtesy.
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Old 02-21-2016, 04:18 PM   #51
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Never, ever turn a logger loose on your woodlot as evidenced by your experience.
Jim
correction: Never, ever turn a dumb logger loose on your woodlot. the majority of us loggers have a lot of experience in forest management and work with the landowners to improve their land as efficient as possible and will always suggest the bmp for any land if a traditional forester was not hired. Some loggers even advertise both as a professional forester and logger. its is how loggers make a living so they are going to take care of your land. this being said no matter where you go there is always the ignorant people so it would be greatly appreciated if you could keep your "all loggers are bad" theory to yourselves
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Old 02-21-2016, 10:56 PM   #52
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I've always disliked this. It forces/encourages landowners to throw up fences when they otherwise wouldn't and also leads to those trashy neon yellow posted signs all over the place... every 100 feet or whatever it is, on every tree. Such an eye sore and so unnecessary.

I'd prefer it if instead of the default being "go ahead and assume it is ok to enter land unless you have reason to believe otherwise" that the default was something more like "don't assume you can enter land unless you know it is public or have permission." That's certainly the way I've always operated, and just strikes me as common courtesy.
I believe that there is also precedent that if land is posted, it must be patrolled. I'm not 100% sure on the specifics of this, but I know that this is the reason why some large land owners (like Paul Smith's College) don't post their land, because then they would be required to patrol it and they don't want to incur that expense and effort. (Most of PSC's land is now easement anyways, with the public's right to recreate firmly in state ownership, so it is a mute point now.)

I think a lot of it has to do with the historical context of posting land- hundreds of years ago, it wasn't done with the general intent of keeping people off one's property, but with the specific intent of keeping people from hunting/fishing on one's property. It basically established that the landowner was the only one allowed to take game on the land. Posting land against trespass entirely is a relatively recent development.
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Old 02-22-2016, 10:30 AM   #53
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I received a reply, via email, and the 'as big as New England' statement was deemed to be an 'intern error'. It has been removed from the description.
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Old 02-22-2016, 05:37 PM   #54
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correction: Never, ever turn a dumb logger loose on your woodlot. the majority of us loggers have a lot of experience in forest management and work with the landowners to improve their land as efficient as possible and will always suggest the bmp for any land if a traditional forester was not hired. Some loggers even advertise both as a professional forester and logger. its is how loggers make a living so they are going to take care of your land. this being said no matter where you go there is always the ignorant people so it would be greatly appreciated if you could keep your "all loggers are bad" theory to yourselves
Albert,
First of of all, I did not say a dumb logger! (your words)
I said a "logger"
I mean no disrespect of you or any of the folks that make their living in the woods. Many of them are my friends.
But, you have to admit, there are loggers that would use any practice to get the most profit from the wood lot.
I welcome your reply.
Jim
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Old 02-24-2016, 10:11 AM   #55
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Oh man! The guys that logged my neighbors (outside the blue line) were quintessential butchers. I'm not privy to the contract but it must of been something like I will give you x amount of dollars for removing x amount of trees from your property.
These guys mess up the land terribly with deep ruts, scarred trees and wasteful downing of trees. I saw numerous trees dropped and left because they must of been discovered substandard after the felling of said tree.
They cut dozens of sizable Hemlocks to aid in creek crossings which were left after use. To this day I walk by these piles of Hemlock and get sick by the wanton waste of these once mighty trees.
I approached the owner and clued him into the destruction befallen his land .
He said, " I'm trying to put the kids through college". What could I say, how could I begrudge a man who is struggling to do the best he can?
My only hope is that his kids acquire a land ethic whilst in college and in the future saves more of the environment than was used for their education.
No disrespect to your neighbor but he could have left a tree here and there as to ensure the complex system underneath the soil was still able to be secure rather than allow for a tree holocaust. If he actually read up on just how damaging clearcutting is to not just the environment but to humans then he wouldn't have allowed for it, unless he was mentally aberrant. He could still pay for his kids getting through college whilst leaving a few mature trees standing.
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Old 02-24-2016, 11:55 AM   #56
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No disrespect to your neighbor but he could have left a tree here and there as to ensure the complex system underneath the soil was still able to be secure rather than allow for a tree holocaust. If he actually read up on just how damaging clearcutting is to not just the environment but to humans then he wouldn't have allowed for it, unless he was mentally aberrant. He could still pay for his kids getting through college whilst leaving a few mature trees standing.
Most of the soil damage from forestry practices is not from the tree removal itself, but from the mechanized equipment used to remove the trees. The BMPs in the link that I included in a previous post are designed to minimize these impacts through the use of carefully designed skid trails and roads, in particular. Simply leaving a few trees behind may not do much to minimize these impacts.
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Old 02-24-2016, 01:21 PM   #57
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DSettahr: Last night I attended a Woodlot Management seminar in Warrensburg with a DEC Forester. Some of the first words out of his mouth were that going on another's land without permission, posted or not, is still trespassing. Posted signs are only a viable warning, as is a newspaper ad, etc...
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Old 02-24-2016, 01:37 PM   #58
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DSettahr: Last night I attended a Woodlot Management seminar in Warrensburg with a DEC Forester. Some of the first words out of his mouth were that going on another's land without permission, posted or not, is still trespassing. Posted signs are only a viable warning, as is a newspaper ad, etc...
It seems to me that he was incorrect or mistaken then, or possibly not getting the point across that he intended to communicate. The actual text of the Penal Law reads differently. Here is the link to the text again, for you to take a look at it yourself:

http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article140.htm

Again, the pertinent entry reads as follows:

Quote:
Section 140.00 (5):

"Enter or remain unlawfully." A person "enters or remains unlawfully" in or upon premises when he is not licensed or privileged to do so. A person who, regardless of his intent, enters or remains in or upon premises which are at the time open to the public does so with license and privilege unless he defies a lawful order not to enter or remain, personally communicated to him by the owner of such premises or other authorized person. A license or privilege to enter or remain in a building which is only partly open to the public is not a license or privilege to enter or remain in that part of the building which is not open to the public. A person who enters or remains upon unimproved and apparently unused land, which is neither fenced nor otherwise enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders, does so with license and privilege unless notice against trespass is personally communicated to him by the owner of such land or other authorized person, or unless such notice is given by posting in a conspicuous manner. A person who enters or remains in or about a school building without written permission from someone authorized to issue such permission or without a legitimate reason which includes a relationship involving custody of or responsibility for a pupil or student enrolled in the school or without legitimate business or a purpose relating to the operation of the school does so without license and privilege.
Again, the key words are that the land must be unimproved, apparently unused, not fenced, and not posted against trespass. Realistically, that is a pretty narrow range of private land that is open to public use without prior permission. I think any halfway decent lawyer could argue successfully in court that a woodlot with active management is not "unused."
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Old 02-24-2016, 04:08 PM   #59
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Most of the soil damage from forestry practices is not from the tree removal itself, but from the mechanized equipment used to remove the trees. The BMPs in the link that I included in a previous post are designed to minimize these impacts through the use of carefully designed skid trails and roads, in particular. Simply leaving a few trees behind may not do much to minimize these impacts.
Exactly "D".
That's why it's important to consult a professional forester before the job begins.
Jim
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Old 02-24-2016, 09:10 PM   #60
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It seems to me that he was incorrect or mistaken then, or possibly not getting the point across that he intended to communicate. The actual text of the Penal Law reads differently. Here is the link to the text again, for you to take a look at it yourself:

http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article140.htm

Again, the pertinent entry reads as follows:



Again, the key words are that the land must be unimproved, apparently unused, not fenced, and not posted against trespass. Realistically, that is a pretty narrow range of private land that is open to public use without prior permission. I think any halfway decent lawyer could argue successfully in court that a woodlot with active management is not "unused."
I read it, but all I can tell ya is what I heard the man say and he's an experienced DEC Forester. Not to mention that I know of people who've gotten in hot water over this because they knew the land was private and the state line was painted yellow. How much is someone willing to pay a lawyer to get them out of a small fine?
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