Adirondack Forum  
Rules Membership Donations and Online Store Adkhighpeaks Foundation ADKhighpeaks Forums ADKhighpeaks Wiki Disclaimer

Go Back   Adirondack Forum > Current Affairs and Environmental Issues > Environmental Issues
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 05-07-2010, 10:02 AM   #41
redhawk
Senior Resident Curmudgeon
 
redhawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: In My Memories
Posts: 10,931
We don't need no Infernal combustion engines in the wilderness.

Hawk
__________________
"If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson
redhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2010, 10:43 AM   #42
fisher39
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,006
The trouble with ATVs is that although they can be very useful vehicles in a lot of backcountry circumstances, they are practically made for jackassish behavior, and much of the marketing portrays jackassish behavior, which means you have a much higher proportion of jackasses buying and using the things.

The same thing goes for snowmobiles, but snowmobiles are used on frozen ground covered in snow, so the potential for damage is minimal.
fisher39 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2010, 10:45 AM   #43
mink
Member
 
mink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by looncry View Post
I heard that the rangers in times past would use a 4 wheeler to get to the fire tower [Lyon Mt.] I thought ATV's were not allowed on trails.It seems there are plenty of ''log roads'' folks with atv's could use in stead of trails,In my opinion. looncry


Exactly...there are numerous dirt roads, logging roads, and old railroad tracks that atv's could be used on instead of hiking trails in the mountains. Although I noticed snowmobile tracks up to the old observer's cabin this past winter it wasn't as upsetting as seeing the erosion caused by the atv.
mink is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2010, 10:55 AM   #44
Charlene
Raddled Harridan
 
Charlene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Chipping Away
Posts: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by fisher39 View Post
The trouble with ATVs is that although they can be very useful vehicles in a lot of backcountry circumstances, they are practically made for jackassish behavior, and much of the marketing portrays jackassish behavior, which means you have a much higher proportion of jackasses buying and using the things.
Yeah, what fisher39 said. My first nursing job was on a neurosurgical unit, later, a neurosurgical ICU. Got my first look at liquified human brains leaking from a fractured skull thanks to ATV jackassery. (That's a sight you never forget, trust me.) ATV drivers kept us in business.... always some jerk tipping their vehicle over onto themselves, smashing their heads on rocks as they did. I'm sure they have their practical uses, but I, for one, have no use for them...
__________________
"The trouble with normal is it always get worse."
Bruce Cockburn
Charlene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2010, 11:09 AM   #45
TCD
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,951
Yeah, I'm not much for motors either, after seeing what they can do. Many years ago, I was doing my ER stint for EMT certification when they brought in a lad about 16 who had flipped one and crushed both ankles; both ankles looked like purple grapefruit. That can't be helping his walking today.

But it is a personal choice. I have no problems with private ATV parks or designated logging roads being open to ATV's.
TCD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2010, 12:25 PM   #46
redhawk
Senior Resident Curmudgeon
 
redhawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: In My Memories
Posts: 10,931
Quote:
Originally Posted by TCD View Post
Yeah, I'm not much for motors either, after seeing what they can do. Many years ago, I was doing my ER stint for EMT certification when they brought in a lad about 16 who had flipped one and crushed both ankles; both ankles looked like purple grapefruit. That can't be helping his walking today.

But it is a personal choice. I have no problems with private ATV parks or designated logging roads being open to ATV's.
I'm on board with that as well.

Problem is, some people feel that have an inalienable right to anywhere they want with whatever they want, regardless of the effect on the environment or other people in general as long as THEIR "Pursuit of happiness" (which they will tell you is a constitutional right, even though it's in the Declaration of Independence).

It's like out west, with all the private and state land that is available for motorized vehicles, people insist they have a right to use them in Yellowstone, in spite of the impact on wildlife and the ecology.

To top it off, many of the groups are very militant and try to intimidate those who disagree with them, so it gives the responsible users a black eye and turns more of the public against them.

I have a brother in law in Washington state that talked about "the crazy sob who blocked the road and opulled a gun on him." The story is that he (my brother in law) and a couple of other people with him were driving their ATV's on private land without the permission of the owner, who was the one that blocked the road and ran them off at gunpoint. To this day he thinks the property owner was the one who was in the wrong.

Hawk
__________________
"If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson
redhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2010, 12:54 PM   #47
looncry
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by redhawk View Post
I'm on board with that as well.

Problem is, some people feel that have an inalienable right to anywhere they want with whatever they want, regardless of the effect on the environment or other people in general as long as THEIR "Pursuit of happiness" (which they will tell you is a constitutional right, even though it's in the Declaration of Independence).

It's like out west, with all the private and state land that is available for motorized vehicles, people insist they have a right to use them in Yellowstone, in spite of the impact on wildlife and the ecology.

To top it off, many of the groups are very militant and try to intimidate those who disagree with them, so it gives the responsible users a black eye and turns more of the public against them.

I have a brother in law in Washington state that talked about "the crazy sob who blocked the road and opulled a gun on him." The story is that he (my brother in law) and a couple of other people with him were driving their ATV's on private land without the permission of the owner, who was the one that blocked the road and ran them off at gunpoint. To this day he thinks the property owner was the one who was in the wrong.

Hawk
Well sai,RH. I wish this law could be reenforced:''Please give your attention to current ATV usage on private wilderness. Or,we can cyphon the sewage and reinvent pipes to send it back to your living room'' sincerely, The wildlife
ps] don't tri this at home [just a thought] looncry
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2010, 04:32 PM   #48
adkman12986
Member
 
adkman12986's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Tupper Lake
Posts: 864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Creekwader View Post
Dude, I don't even remember my intentions 7 years ago. Probably more of an academic curiosity. Not knowing the demographics of this board in its infancy.

My personal opinion (open to debate of course) is that ATVs have no place on public land because they infringe on the enjoyment, safety and access rights those who can't afford such luxuries or just choose to walk. I had a conversation with a co-worker awhile back. He was spouting about the lack of trails on ADK state lands and I asked him, knowing that he owned alot of property, why he didn't ride on his own land. His response was, "I don't want to tear up my land".
Dude What about the rights of others who do choose to ride an ATV responsabily?
adkman12986 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2010, 04:36 PM   #49
redhawk
Senior Resident Curmudgeon
 
redhawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: In My Memories
Posts: 10,931
Quote:
Originally Posted by adkman12986 View Post
Dude What about the rights of others who do choose to ride an ATV responsabily?
There are plenty of places where one can ride an ATV responsibly. Just not EVERYPLACE.

Hawk
__________________
"If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson
redhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2010, 04:39 PM   #50
looncry
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Can't we lobby instead of sounding arrogant on this thread?
I am taking a long break. I can't deal with it anylonger. Looncry
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2010, 04:59 PM   #51
adkman12986
Member
 
adkman12986's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Tupper Lake
Posts: 864
It is not my intention to antagonize nor insult anyone here. I never said "everywhere" nor did I say that it was permissible to ride off trails anywhere you might choose.

As a life long resident of the area and a long time hunting and fishing enthusiast I may get carried away with some statements that are totally against compromise. I have seen DEC's inability to deal with the wrong doers whether it is a ATV rider a fisherman or a camper/hiker. When the state bought the Lows Lake area there were bald eagles nesting on the ledges of Wolf Mt. The next year they were turn down by someone who repelled down to them and painted their name on the ledges. Garbage was strewn all over the place where campsites were located and private docks were burned. And there are lots of others.

Unfortunately until the State learns how to deal with these people it will continue to happen no matter what you do. I say make an example of these people and let the others learn from them. The park is 6 million acres and there is plenty of room for everyone.
adkman12986 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2010, 05:18 PM   #52
Creekwader
Snag Locator
 
Creekwader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: In the Place of the Nettles
Posts: 938
Quote:
Originally Posted by adkman12986 View Post
Dude What about the rights of others who do choose to ride an ATV responsabily?
A. When the roads were opened a couple years ago, I saw no evidence that any of the riders rode responsibly (ie stayed on the trails they were supposed to).
B. A 500 lb. vehicle with 300 lb. of driver and gear knows not the ethical intentions of the driver.

BTW: I agree that the ATV reg fee should be dropped if there is no publicly maintained trail system.
Creekwader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2010, 07:20 AM   #53
randomscooter
Native Earthling
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Scooterville, NY
Posts: 1,500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TCD View Post
But it is a personal choice. I have no problems with private ATV parks or designated logging roads being open to ATV's.
Agreed. The Adirondack Park is roughly 1/2 private lands, including many very large tracts. Plenty of room for ATV users to enjoy. So, how many private ATV parks are there in the Adirondacks? I'm guessing very few, if any. Why is that? Perhaps the comments below offer some insight...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Creekwader View Post
I had a conversation with a co-worker awhile back. He was spouting about the lack of trails on ADK state lands and I asked him, knowing that he owned alot of property, why he didn't ride on his own land. His response was, "I don't want to tear up my land".
Quote:
Originally Posted by redhawk View Post
I have a brother in law in Washington state that talked about "the crazy sob who blocked the road and opulled a gun on him." The story is that he (my brother in law) and a couple of other people with him were driving their ATV's on private land without the permission of the owner, who was the one that blocked the road and ran them off at gunpoint. To this day he thinks the property owner was the one who was in the wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Creekwader View Post
A. When the roads were opened a couple years ago, I saw no evidence that any of the riders rode responsibly (ie stayed on the trails they were supposed to).
It seems there are too many ATV users who are unable or unwilling to discipline themselves. And I would guess there are too many who are unwilling to look the abusers in the eye and tell them to straighten out. Both of these behaviors are breaches of responsibility.

It doesn't take very many undisciplined ATV users to leave a noticeable scar on the lands. But all it takes are a few responsible ATV users to self-police the ATV community. Turn in the abusers and turn the problem around. So where are those few responsible ATV users? How many of those who are screaming for ATV users' "rights" have seen those rights abused by others and failed to live up to their own responsibility by turning them in?

And it's not just ATV users who seem to be afraid to self-police. It's pervasive. Everyone is afraid, or doesn't want to be bothered, to DEFEND their rights against abusers of those rights. A right undefended is soon lost.
__________________
Scooting here and there
Through the woods and up the peaks
Random Scoots awaits (D.P.)


"Pushing the limits of easy."
randomscooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2010, 08:07 AM   #54
adkman12986
Member
 
adkman12986's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Tupper Lake
Posts: 864
Or could it be that many people (private land owners) are afraid of stupid lawsuits that the state judicial system are awarding huge settlements for?

There are some private clubs that allow ATV use that have strict rules about where you can and can't go. If you violate the rules out you go. Most of the clubs start at a minimum of $500 a year and up. The question is why should I have to spend another $500 to join a club when the state land should be open to everyone to use in certain areas. Not every area should be open to ATVs but there can and should be designated areas. Someone mentioned a 500lb machine with a 300 load. How about the thousands of miles of abandoned railroad lines that carried 100,000 locomotives. Again let DEC deal with the ones that violate the rules. If I stood to loose my $7000 ATV for straying off the trails you can vet I would stay where I should.
adkman12986 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2010, 08:33 AM   #55
redhawk
Senior Resident Curmudgeon
 
redhawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: In My Memories
Posts: 10,931
Scooter hit it right on the button.

I often listen to people complain about what they have seen others do. When i ask them if they spoke to them, or turned them in I hear "I'm not a rat", or "It's not my business".

It certainly is YOUR business if it ends up messing up public property (which YOU have ownership of), or if the behavior puts your sport in a bad light and infringes on what you consider YOUR RIGHTS.

About four years ago I was in the Silver Lake Wilderness and there were four ATV's on the trail. I pointed out that it was posted against motorized traffic to be told, "It's OK, we're not hurting anything". Actually they were, Mostly the image of ATV users as law abiding, since they were willingly violating the regulations. There were also several muddy spots which were rutted due to the ATV use which erodes the trail. I bet those four (all adults in their 30's) would say they were driving responsibly but they were not. When I got to the trailhead, their vehicles were there with the trailers. I took down the license numbers and turned them in to the ranger (The ATV's had no plates). Funny, I didn't feel like a "rat". I felt like a "responsible citizen".

Actually what we have are privileges, not rights that are guaranteed simply by being a citizen or a taxpayer. Public property MUST be managed and regulated to assure that all citizens benefit from them, usually in proportion to the amount of people engaged in specific endeavors as well as the consideration of how their use will effect others as a collective.

I don't know for a fact, but I would bet that if a vote were taken among ALL the citizens of a state as to whether they would want ATV's using state land, my gues is that the ATV advocates would not be happy with the results and that in fact today the amount of places that are available for their use is far more proportionate in regards to participants then say hiking or paddling. I could be wrong.

The biggest problem as I see it for ATV owner is the image, which is propagated by ATV advertisements, televised races and irresponsible use. Along with that is the "Us against them" attitude that is adopted by a great many ATV owners and organizations.
The solution is for self policing, and reaching across the trail to work with hikers, paddlers and other outdoor enthusiast to clean up the behavior and the image and then work together with open minds and arms to reach a policy that is beneficial to all.

Hawk
__________________
"If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson

Last edited by redhawk; 05-08-2010 at 08:46 AM..
redhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2010, 08:40 AM   #56
redhawk
Senior Resident Curmudgeon
 
redhawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: In My Memories
Posts: 10,931
Quote:
Originally Posted by adkman12986 View Post
Or could it be that many people (private land owners) are afraid of stupid lawsuits that the state judicial system are awarding huge settlements for?

There are some private clubs that allow ATV use that have strict rules about where you can and can't go. If you violate the rules out you go. Most of the clubs start at a minimum of $500 a year and up. The question is why should I have to spend another $500 to join a club when the state land should be open to everyone to use in certain areas. Not every area should be open to ATVs but there can and should be designated areas. Someone mentioned a 500lb machine with a 300 load. How about the thousands of miles of abandoned railroad lines that carried 100,000 locomotives. Again let DEC deal with the ones that violate the rules. If I stood to loose my $7000 ATV for straying off the trails you can vet I would stay where I should.
And where does the state get the manpower to police those trails? How do they identify the violators, short of chasing them down with another ATV? Isn't it a fact that about half of the ATV's in NY state are unregistered? (Asking, this is what I've heard). I have seen a lot of ATV's without plates. I know they have to be registered before taking delivery but don't a lot of people let them expire?

And just to clarify my stand on the issue. I do not have, nor do I want an ATV. I prefer non motorized propulsion. However I do believe that there should be places where ATV users can ride their vehicles. I do not believe it should be wild forests or wilderness areas. That leaves an awful lot of other territory.

Hawk
__________________
"If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson
redhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2010, 09:19 AM   #57
Old Rivers
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Schenectady County
Posts: 168
ATV's should be allowed to access hunting & fishing destinations where it would be otherwise difficult for average sportsmen. Backwoods are not only for young fit hiking taxpayers but all taxpayers who enjoy legitimate sporting activities. Dragging out a deer more than 1/2 mile or carrying out 50# of gear is too difficult for average seniors. I am not advocating pleasure riding ATV's but reasonable access for other sporting activities. Multiple use is only fair!
Old Rivers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2010, 09:51 AM   #58
Neil
Admin
 
Neil's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 6,118
I give a lot of credit to the pro-ATV contingency in this thread. They are obviously heavily out-numbered here and they make their points in a well-articulated and civilized manner.


While the case of senior hunters is very well made I can't bring myself to agree with it. Being a 54 year old (ie. getting up there myself) but fit hiker I can still go pretty well anywhere I please off the trails all over the High Peaks Region. However, I know all too well that the time will come when I am no longer physically capable of practicing my sport the way I do now.

If I apply the logic of allowing aging hunters to compensate for their declining physical capacity to myself then I would advocate being able to use internal combustion driven conveyances to get me to where I want to go. Would it not be more realistic if I simply accepted my condition and changed my pattern of activity to better reflect my physical limitations?
__________________
The best, the most successful adventurer, is the one having the most fun.
Neil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2010, 10:12 AM   #59
adkman12986
Member
 
adkman12986's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Tupper Lake
Posts: 864
Once again if the penalty is harsh enough it would help deter some of the issues. Also if small areas were opened up one at a time they would be able to keep control of them. I can bet if it was some state officials pet project they could find the money and manpower somewhere.

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/a...arrel-spending

State legislative member items — known as "pork" spending in some circles — is controversial enough, and, yes, one can rightly question whether this pot of $170 million should exist at all, at any time.

For instance, in the Senate, President Malcolm Smith, D-Queens, received the highest allocation of $5.7 million, followed by Deputy Majority Leader Jeff Klein, D-Bronx, with $5 million,

And this is just a fraction of it.
adkman12986 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2010, 10:36 AM   #60
8thday
**BANNED**
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: the river
Posts: 465
I agree with the idea that when folks get up there in age, they have to accept the fact they just can't go wherever they'd like to anymore. And they shouldn't expect to use an atv to get where they can't hoof it anymore.Yesterday I helped a senior citizen who was walking with a cane, get back on his feet twice after "falling & couldn't get up." It wasn't in the woods, but far out on a remote beach. Someone else helped the guy to solid ground. So it's like Clint says, "A man has got to know his limitations." No disrespect to the elderly implied from me, just giving an example of how a person may get injured & maybe nobody will be around to help them. It's fine to be out & about staying active, just remember how old you are in numbers. If you fall & break your hip, it's a good bet you won't recover from it and cut your life shorter than it could be. And driving an atv isn't something elderly people should be doing, it's dangerous.
8thday is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.

DISCLAIMER: Use of these forums, and information found herein, is at your own risk. Use of this site by members and non-members alike is only granted by the adkhighpeak.com administration provided the terms and conditions found in the FULL DISCLAIMER have been read. Continued use of this site implies that you have read, understood and agree to the terms and conditions of this site. Any questions can be directed to the Administrator of this site.