Any Placid Boat Works owners?

[algurney]

Does anyone have any feedback on these boats. They look fantastic and I'm considering one. What would be best for solo camping, fishing exploring etc.?

[Wldrns]

Does anyone have any feedback on these boats. They look fantastic and I'm considering one. What would be best for solo camping, fishing exploring etc.?

I have a RapidFire, can't speak for the other models from Placid Boats. I love it. I use it for cruising on larger waters where I want to cover a lot of distance fast. I save the Hornbeck as better to use for smaller water pondhopping and many long portages, though the RaidFire carries far and easy on trail with the assistance of something like a Bell clamp-on solo yoke, with or without a knupac type backpack. But relative to a Hornbeck (for example), the RF's weight and especially the longer length will limit your ease of travel on a tough woodsy bushwhack.

Unlike many users of this boat, I much prefer using a single blade paddle along with the optional higher seat. I get lots of precise control along with speed that way - for me it is a most pleasant way to go. It tracks very straight, and if you know how to handle a paddle along with a lean it is responsive and quick to turn as well. For racing however, the double blade kayak paddle is the standard mode. I've recently been using the RF for training solo, when my larger voyageur (war canoe) crew is unable to paddle together. With the right paddle I can well simulate the catch, cadence and feel of the larger boat.

Just like with a Hornbeck, the RF's optional spray cover helps in rough and windy water, and for keeping double blade drips out - annoying if you forget a sponge. If you intend to camp and carry a heavy pack, it works best to divide the load into smaller bags that you can put fore and aft, to maintain trim. In really rough water keep all weight as central as possible, to allow the bow and stern to weightlessly bob up and over waves instead of cutting through. This helps to avoid splash blow-in.

At least for me it feels stable and steady as a rock in rough water with no tendency to tip, so it would probably make a good fishing boat. The only disadvantage is that you are essentially sitting on a raised platform a few inches off the bottom, so movement around in the boat is rather restricted when compared to, say, a tandem canoe - but leg position and movement is far freer than with a kayak.

So go visit Charlie and Joe. Although they don't rent boats out long term, you can try a RapidFire or another of their models right there at their shop on the pond. Joe will be paddling a RF again in the 90 Miler this year. Little doubt who will win the class.

[mwanner]

I have the Spitfire. I would agree with most of what Wldrns says of the Rapidfire, though I use a double blade, and don't (yet) have the spray skirt. The 12-foot length is good for negotiating tiny, twisty brooks, though it is (by some figures) 0.4 mph slower than the Rapid. It is also 4 pounds lighter than the Rapidfire.

And I haven't found any problem in putting a 40 pound pack in the stern and a 15 pound pack in the bow-- it still handles fine (though I'm under 150 pounds-- a heavier paddler might need to worry more about fine-tuning the trim).

So do check them out. You can also paddle them at Mountain Man Outdoors in Old Forge, if that's closer to you (though you'll miss the experience of meeting Charlie and Joe).

[Bob K]

Happy RapidFire owner

I bought my RapidFire nearly 3 years ago and am very happy. I rarely use my 14 ft kayak anymore as the canoe is lighter, easier in/out and is simpler to load with camping gear. I use it frequently for local exercise paddling as well as multi day camping. It does very well in rough water and I'd pick it over my kayak for nearly everything except when lots of power boats likely (Lake George in summer) and when paddling in winter/very cold water when the skirt helps keep me dry & warm.

When I bought it, i went to the shop with some of my camping gear storage containers to both test fit & paddle it along with the SpitFire. I felt that the extra speed, and capacity were worth the additional $ and weight. I do not do long portages frequently. At 30 lbs with seat & foot pegs it is light enough for me. I built a custom yoke and have taken it nearly 1 mile into a pond at the longest so far.

I did get the integrated seat on the floor and normally use a double blade. It does track well and can be used with a single blade (better when loaded in my opinion).

It looks nice but I don't care about that. I have no complaints. Not many people will likely complain after paying $2k for a boat however.

[algurney]

Thanks for your feedback. I'm headed up to do some paddling the first week of September, so I will make time to test them out.

[documania]

My spouse has a RapidFire and I have a SpitFire. In the one year we've owned them, we've paddled rivers, lakes, ponds, and marshes. Both boats handle all of these conditions creditably, though the Rapid has proven tough to turn, and the Spit is so much slower (inherent in size/design, then exaggerated by difference in upper body strength and paddling technique) that it's hard sometimes to paddle together.

Both boats are sensitive to quartering winds. We reduced the effect by moving the seats 2" back. Both boats also had the finish on the wooden gunwales wear down and need freshening in well under a year, which was an unhappy surprise given their purchase cost. Conversely, the hulls are more durable than I expected, owing to their flexibility and the white gelcoat cap along the bottom. They've taken some hard whacks and scrapes on rocky rivers, with only light cosmetic damage.

Recently, we took entry-level whitewater training in Class 2 rapids. I ran the Spit with air bags; spouse was not confident of the Rapid's maneuverability so rented a more nimble boat. I was impressed by how well my Spit performed in tumultuous water powerful enough to swamp or overturn me (but didn't). At this point I am more confident in fastwater than I am on open quiet water, because it is so hard to paddle the Spit in the wind -- hard enough that I've started to avoid lakes.

An unexpected benefit: The boats are really good-looking, and everywhere we go, people stop us and ask about them, effusive with compliments and covetous sighs. I've never owned something crowd-pleasing before, so I am enjoying those moments. I also adore the fact I can pick up my boat and carry it around, load it on a tall vehicle, without having a hernia! This combined with its overall utility has made me glad I bought it.

[algurney]

Thanks Documania. A very honest review and much appreciated.

[charlie wilson]

Maker's Response

Documania is Carolyn North's alias, but the last review was obviously written by Charlie North. They both attended our fall Camp at Fish Creek and paddled on the loop I led on that Saturday. While Charlie's review was generally positive, a few points require comment.

RapidFire turns quite easily for a hull with a 7.5 length/width ratio, way past a marathon racer's 7.0 l/w, but heeling it a little helps a lot. I can turn the hull within it's own length.

Neither Spit nor Rapid are wind sensitive, but when paddlers carry the blade aft of their bodies, forward strokes end in a sweep which turns the boat.

Moving our seat placements 2" aft further skegs the already skegged stern and will stop technique induced yaw, but will also make the bow wind sensitive.

We offer a sliding seat, new for 08, mostly for racers and folks who sometimes paddle with a large dog, but our seats are placed where they need to be for most folks paddling with proper technique.

Wood trim needs to be maintained. When I was with Bell, we put two coats of oil on the rails, knowing the rails needed six annual applications. At Pb, we put two coats of PU on our wood, knowing it needs one annual re-coat. Charlie and Carolyn bought their boats early summer 07. If the finish is fading it needs another coat of MinWax Spar PU. Inside/outside storage is a contributing factor.

We are considering changing to a more durable wood finish like Armada, but that will increase cost and be harder for customers to access, while MinWax S PU is available in every hardware store in the nation.

We do have a zero maintenance option: CobraSox XLT Trim. The rails infuse with the hull as one piece of plastic with 39 pieces of fabric and 2 pieces of foam reinforcement. It's pretty cool and saves ~4 lbs a hull; wish we could have afforded the patent.

another Charlie

[documania]

Point of clarification in response to Charlie W.'s posting: The review he refers to was wholly mine (Carolyn). Charlie N. and I post independently, and did not collaborate on this review.

Also, in case anyone is wondering, or misinterprets: My intention was not to diss either boat, but to present my experiences, pro and con, in response to the original inquiry. Our first year of ownership of the RapidFire and SpitFire has been an intense exploration of different waters and training in paddling, and it's been interesting and challenging. The two boats, so similar in appearance, have provided different effects.

Technique, I'm sure, colors one's entire boating experience, and whether one buys a certain boat or another depends on compatibility between boat and body. For me, the SpitFire is a good match. I am not a strong paddler, nor do I have good technique, and I find the Spit intuitively responsive while the Rapid requires muscle or skill I don't have. Your mileage may vary.

The Rapid, however, is aptly named! At full bore with a double-bladed paddle, I can't keep up with my partner who's cruising gently with either single blade or double. While some of that can be accounted for by strength and/or technique, the Rapid is still a faster boat when measured on a river. Sitting in place side by side in the current, the Rapid even floats faster!

Others can debate the design and engineering factors of seat location and wind response. My eyes cross when the numbers come out. I can only say that my boat behaved better once the seat was repositioned (we purchased before the PB adjustable seat was available), but it still is more than I can handle in certain wind directions. This may be a factor of it being a canoe vs. a particular style or brand of canoe.

(I originally shopped for a kayak in order to have less wind effect, and because I'm a double-blader, but the Spit ultimately seduced me and I have no regrets. I even tested for regrets at this year's Paddle Fest, hopping between various high-end and low-end kayaks, then back into the Spit for comparison. It won, hands down.)

[Awetcanoe]

No Charlie, I did not write that review. And I do not intend to write a full review at this time.
We took delivery of our boats in August 07. My Rapid had the wood turning black in areas before your paddle meet. It also had two splits in the woodwork and a broken off screw head. Not to mention a screw had been removed before delivery where the split in the wood deck cap is. Therefore that split had been known about prior to delivery.
Personally a new boat should not need the wood refinished in less that two months.
Our Spit has not been refinished yet, it is due now. The Rapid had to be done.

The Rapidfire molds are very wavy from non properly repaired damage. Each boat layed up in those molds is visually a second. The boats look great from a distance but close up they are not a smooth finish as they should be. You may have repaired the mold since then so this maybe a moot point.

Seat choice, it is nice that there are a number of seat choices for these boats, it can allow the buyer to get the paddling position they desire.
One thing to note though. The low seat is shaped well, but we found the high seat offered a better paddle position for us, at first.
The way the high seat was made was to just lift the rear of the low seat. This is fine in theory but the paddler no longer sits in the seat but you slide forward onto the flat area. PB provides a pad with the boat that reduces this tendency. If the high seat was not tilted forward it would be much more comfortable. Also the seats are quite narrow, if you have more than a 34-36 waist you may not be happy with long paddle sessions. This is more of an issue with the pad fitted.
If you weigh more than 150lbs I would consider their adjustable seat.

Not wind sensitive? Bad paddling! BS. With no paddle strokes and letting the boat glide, it weathervanes to the wind. There is no influence from the paddler when gliding. My boat no longer does this, it has been taken care of.
I have over 300 miles paddling the Rapid over this calender year, mostly single blade with a Zaveral. We have paddled in many different conditions right up to 30" waves. They were fun!
I think I pretty well have an understanding of this boat and how it handles. I am happy with my Rapid as it is setup now.
I could well go on to many other points about these boats and the company but I do not have the desire to. Personally I would not buy another boat from them.

[yellowcanoe]

I have just started using my RapidFire for tripping. I got it last fall.

So far I have put on about 500 miles in varying conditions and am quite happy.

I day trip with it in the winter on the coast of Maine where I stick to the "fingered" mid coast area..there is alot of gunkholing to be done there. Waves are usually mild..we did do a crossing of the Sheepscot River which is about two miles during a December snowstorm and three foot waves. The Rapid is pretty bow light and skegged in the stern and I would prefer the seat a little more forward. However this can be corrected by putting a daypack in the bow.

When you stop paddling, for safety reasons a boat SHOUD weathervane into the wind. Thats the most stable position in case of emergency.

I did not yet have the spray skirt when I did an Everglades ten day trip. I got to carry all the water but it made no diff to the Rapid. 420 lbs is alot for any boat but in choppy Gulf seas up to 3 feet only with a rear quartering wind and all that water weight (150 lbs..you have to carry your own water) did I get any occasional wave slop.

As for purty.. well mine was at one time. I got mine to paddle not to hoist in the living room. The clear coat has a lot of barnacle scratches that were unavoidable (have to stand in the boat to climb on chickee supports)

I found where Rapid shines this summer as I have been doing Maine backwoods trips (multidayers) with one pack and single carrying. Those two mile portages are no longer a dread; they are just a walk in the woods...sometimes over the woods..more scratches.

I did run one class 2 rapid but at high water. If I had hit a rock and cracked the boat, it would have been the end of me...I would have been too embarassed to take it back for repair.

Yes RF turns pretty quick if you can hold a good edge..even with a double blade..I learned in a sea kayak how to edge pretty radically with a j lean from the hips up.. its easier when kneeling for sure, but the same works for sitting.

It makes it easier when I am guiding to check for all of the group..you know how paddlers can scatter.

[charlie wilson]

RapidFire and Pb: a few facts.

This has been an interesting discussion, leavened by Pb's seemingly, sole disgruntled customer.

The RapidFire mold has has two major issues. We stuck the first splash coat and then stuck a hull this spring. Mold repairs are always a sanding issue; there will be a new Rapid mold built this fall. We are way too small, despite all the high tech stuff, to build a canoe mold in season. Just three guys.

We have had black discoloration issues with cherry on a few, 4-5 hulls that we know of. After asking around in the wood canoe community, it seems to be a moisture and heat motivated movement of pitch pockets endemic to cherry rather than a mold. We saved a discolored set of replaced rails in the warehouse and no further issues arose, although the black splotching didn't go away either. [ Charlie, we'll gladly re-rail your boat; no cost.]

With 75% of our production running to CobraSox rails, we are considering a three coat Ephiphanes treatment for next years wood. More expensive, but the product is customer accessible through Jamestown and better than our current customer accessible MinWax PU Spar which is better than oil. Wood and water will always be an issue, with occasionally unhappy results.

I tooled all three of our molded pedestals and the risers for our cane seat, so can speak to seating group history better than most. The original molded bucket was meant to be a low weight, utilitarian, zero maintenance option to the cherry framed contoured cane bucket seat we buy from Ed's Canoe Parts.

The shape was from a bucket seat I was working on for Bell, mounted on an oval footstool I bought at Aubuchons for $3.90 as a way to quick start the pedestal. We matched the 12dg back angle of our cane bucket, and 1.5 gl of Bondo later, the first Pb molded bucket emerged. When my partner Joe Moore needed a race seat, we bought a sprint kayak seat, dropped tabs down and pop riveted it over our low bucket at an 8dg back angle because he wanted a more upright stance in the boat.

The medium seat was born of that collaboration, and the plug still includes those components. Joe insisted we add side vents to drain water when carried on the shoulder, which we also added to the second year low molded seat, and we opened the seat dish and softened the seat edges to better fit paddlers more " successful" than most Olympic athletes with less than 5% body fat.

After the 06 90 miler, Joe wanted an even flatter, more upright, seat, allowing a more vertical stroke and more forward catch. We achieved this building by a heavy glass medium seat, cutting it 80% of the way around the back and raising the back edge 1". The 4dg back angle achieved exactly matches the original sprint kayak seat angle excepting the enlarger dish and softened edges! It is a pretty aggressive product for anyone wanting to sit still and watch an osprey feed it's young, but a 5'2" lady just took a high seat home in her SpitFire because it presented her paddle to the water better then the med or low. We make no apology for successively trimmer seats for higher angles. On average, fitter, more athletic, paddlers choose higher, more aggressive seats. We'd be missing the market to fit that high seat to more successful guys. That's more than enough about Pb seats, although i intend to write a book on the subject when i retire, [or maybe I just did.]

Paddlecraft handling is a bugaboo wrapped in an enigma. This is mostly because the pivot point on any hull design changes with forward speed. To spare the long, mathematical, explanation, please read The Ships of Point Revel in J McPhee's Uncommon Carriers and Google the Peripatetic Pivot Point. The faster you drive your boat the farther forward the loci of all forces is located. Consequently, the faster you drive your hull the more it weathercocks, or turns into the wind because the stern moment arm acted upon bu the wind gets longer. Moving the seat, hence Center of Gravity, aft as Charlie North has done increases tracking and ability draw the bow at slower speeds, at the cost of weather vaneing, turning downwind, in quartering winds. We can assume he's trimmed his Rapid to work with his paddling style at his average speed.

It is impossible to design a boat that is neutral at all speeds, but we trust David Yost will do the job better than most, actually than any, for most of us.

Turning is another issue. Joe and i went to the mighty Chubb River this afternoon, between building hulls and wet work on our new CobraSox thwart and FlashFire tank molds. Kinda hasty; no preparation, no script. Both Spit and Rapid are shown turning flat standing, under power with sweeps and through skidded turns on our web site: www.placidboatworks.com. Sorry i didn't nail the rail, but I had my cell phone in my pocket. They are tripping, not FreeStyle hulls, but they come around pretty well.

Bon chance!

the other charlie

ps;
No boat maker is perfect, but Joe and i strive to approach that goal. We've hired the best designer of paddlecraft of all time: David Yost. We infusion laminate our hulls with carbon/kevlar fabric because that makes for the lightest, strongest, and longest lived laminate.

Our trim is furniture grade cherry or space age CobraSox, and we have paid particular attention to the comfort of our cockpit; including adjustable footpegs, adjustable backband and four seat choices with a slider option on the three molded bucket pedestals, with two options on our kneeling boats.

We have reduced SpitFire weight, in a world class rugged -three decade life - hull with full cockpit amenities, to just under twenty pounds.

Joe and I strive every day to design and build better. We regret that doesn't always happen and that we haven't pleased Charlie North. We'll try to work it out.

cew

[spidennis]

After much looking around and researching, we finally decided on one boat and placed our order for a blue rapidfire today, with low seat, high seat, and xlt rails. Our new boat's specs had to cover a full range of paddling styles and the rf seems to be the only one in this class. I'll be using it in "90", single and multi day trips, training, and just paddling around tupper lake. I think my mom will really like that she won't be trying to push along a battleship and will find paddling farther to be much more fun.

Yesterday I did a 12 hour run from long lake to tupper lake in a 2 person 20 year old aquaterra 70 lb yellow plastic kayak (16' x 34") with a touring double bladed paddle. I'm looking forward to doing the same route with the rf and see just how much time I can shave off. Predictions anyone? a report will follow!

[Wldrns]

I'm looking forward to doing the same route with the rf and see just how much time I can shave off. Predictions anyone? a report will follow!

You'll have to beat Joe Moore's 5:10 time to the crusher.

[spidennis]

Richard Costanza actually beat joe by 0:00:01 ? that would be 1 second? that musta been something to see huh?