Canoe decision help.

**stripperguy** · 10-21-2007, 08:13 PM

Mr. River,
All of those boats are really nice, I've paddled the Bell Magic and it is sweet.
But, for the cost of one, you could build your own stripper, or maybe 5 or 6 strippers. Then you wouldn't need to decide which design boat to buy, but you would need to decide where ti put all the boats. A stripper is within the reach of anyone talented enough to walk upright. Think about it, it's very cool to be able to afford an expensive boat, but much cooler to build your own inexoensive boat!

**stripperguy** · 10-21-2007, 08:17 PM

And someday, I'll actually proof read what I type!

**madmike** · 10-21-2007, 09:01 PM

Royalex

I like Royalex, I have paddled and carried several of my Royalex boats for years. Stripperguy has a point.

**aft paddle** · 10-21-2007, 10:04 PM

Originally posted by mohawkriverdan

I will be buying sometime in feb so I won't be test paddling before I buy.(I know) So your input is very important to my decision making process.

Dan

You think you know-you think you know, but you just don't know!

Why not wait until you can test some out---Buying one and finding that it's really not what you want can be a bummer when it's cheap, but can get a lot tougher when you've plunked down a bundle.

**JClimbs** · 10-21-2007, 10:39 PM

Pete Hornbeck dabbled a bit with "real" canoes - dunno if he ever put one in his line-up, but if you give the shop a call, Simon might be able to help you out. Also, they occasionally have swappers that they sell at very attractive prices. And of course, you would be able to try them out in their pond. Most of their own boats lean toward super lightweight, recreational/fishing boats, so I don't think they are what you're looking for.
Overall, the length of boat you choose depends on what you will mostly be doing with it. If you are looking for very fast day trips or multi-day solo trips, the tandems are a good choice. If you are looking toward long portages, mostly casual day trips, fishing from the boat a lot, then a solo canoe is better. You won't save much weight of course - your solo options are pretty big, and materials tend to be concentrated in the ends, but every ounce counts on a portage!

**BellWildFIRE** · 10-22-2007, 05:58 AM

I have a Bell WildFIRE (now available from Placid) and a Bell NorthSTAR rigged for tandem/solo that I use for tripping. The WildFire is wonderful, but you might be getting near the upper end for effecient travel with a load. The NorthSTAR really does make a resonable solo boat- the paddling station is a bit wide, but if you paddle canadian style, that's moot. Have you looked at Hemlocks' offerings? they are very nice, too.
~Glenn

**charlie wilson** · 10-22-2007, 10:14 AM

Solo boats for a big guy

Dan;

Kneeling/sitting with a single stick, you're probably a little large for Magic, Merlin 2, Prism or WildFire. Strangely, I was chatting with DY this morning about a larger WildFire variant for big guys.

The best available hulls for you are Hemlock's Eaglet, Bell's NorthStar with a kneeling thwart at third thwart position, Placid's StarFire, Maybe one of Swifts larger solos and a couple other Canadian solos that are actually combi boats like the ones named above.

The issues are flex in the hull and stability with a tall, heavy guy.

Crossing over to the dark side; sitting low and using a double blade paddle would solve those fit/flex problems because your weight would be transferred to the bottom by the seat and because you're seven inches lower, stability would be increased. AT that point, a Bell Merlin would make a fine general duty pack canoe.

Combining Carbon with Kevlar eliminates oil canning, which seemingly cannot be done in ABS. You will need to warn the manufacturer about your weight so the boat can be reinforced at the seat. Also, you'll need to get a set of Chota boots and start turning the boat parallel to the beach in ankle deep water and stepping out. Paddlers of top end boats just don't skid up on the beach, or walk down the keel line with it beached.

**gmagnes** · 10-22-2007, 10:32 AM

Northstar Paddler

Hi,
Great question. I paddle a Bell Northstar and do about 80% of my paddling in it solo, with the boat heeled over. I had a kneeling thwart installed and use that to solo paddle on my knees with the edge of my butt resting on the thwart. I find I can paddle that way for long stretches very comfortably. I love paddling the Northstar and if you only have the money for one boat and plan to do both solo and tandem paddling (or want the option of doing both), the Northstar is a great choice. I find I can paddle on windy rivers with it and am also able to manage on pretty big water and with windy conditions as well. I should note that I've paddled 1-2 Wenonahs a little bit and much prefer the feel of the Bells. Also, for solo paddling a tandem, the tumblehome style design of the Bell makes it an excellent choice and I don't think the Wenonahs are generally designed in that style, although I'm not really familiar with the Prism or Minn 2 models you're considering. I have a friend with the solo plus, and although it's very light, I would say that the Bell handles noticeably better.

Also, if you do decide to go with the tandem, I would recommend the Northstar over the Morningstar if you're looking for a fun, nice handling boat. I believe the Northstar is narrower and more maneuverable and just handles more nicely. Like all of the Bell boats, it'll feel a bit tippy at first, especially compared to a Coleman, but if you're comfortable with a boat designed more for secondary stability, you'll be fine with it. It's very stable (secondary stability) and can be heeled as far as you want to heel it.

BUT

If you really only expect to use the boat as a solo boat, then my advice is buy a true solo. I've paddled the Merlin 2 a number of times and often paddle with friends who paddle it, and it is clearly superior to the tandem boat as a solo boat. It handles better, is more efficient paddling, and is much better in windy conditions. At least that's been my experience.

When talking solo's, I've only paddled the Magic once or twice briefly, so my comment isn't based so much on my experience as on that of others who've paddled both. The Magic may be a bit faster and easier tracking, but is not quite as maneuverable and perhaps not as much fun to paddle.

I have a kevlar layup with an almond gel coat, so with the wood trim it weighs about 47-48 lbs., and my boat is about 8 years old. I believe the kevlar layup they're making now with the clear gel coat is about 4-5 lbs lighter, assuming the same trim. If you go with the solo boat, then it'll weigh significantly less, depending on the layup. I've been satisfied with the kevlar, although you do definitely need to be aware of how you land and launch, and I often will wet foot it. It's definitely not a white water boat, although I do class 1 stuff with it, such as the Battenkill. The carbon fiber is reputed to be much tougher and more durable, but the extent to which you want to do white water or drag that over rocky shores etc for the sake of dry feet, I'm not sure. Probably more than the kevlar. I would suspect though that you're going to sacrifice handling and feel if you go with a royalex layup, although I don't have any direct experience of the Bell's with that layup.

You could try calling Bell directly for their input, or if you're in the Capital District, then by all means check out Adirondack Paddle N' Pole (Rich Macha). He's paddled all of the Bell's extensively, sells all of them, and he'll give you straight advice based on your needs and wants in a boat (346-3180). Given the weather right now, you could probably still get a good test paddle in with either or both the Merlin or Northstar or any of the others you're considering, and I'd strongly recommend test paddling before you buy if at all possible. These boats and the options you're considering definitely have different feels to them. Also, one last note, if you paddle the Merlin, the height of the seat and whether you sit or kneel in it will make a noticeable difference on its feel of stability. If you plan to sit more than kneel, get a deeper drop on the seat mounts and it'll make a big difference in its overall feel of stability.

Good luck and feel free to ask any other questions. Be glad to help if I can.

Gerry Magnes
Schenectady, NY

**Tom McG** · 10-22-2007, 11:21 AM

I own a Merlin II (2-years) and the Wenonah Solo Plus (16-years). The Merlin is a great Solo boat that handles well both empty and loaded. With your height you may not be able to comfortably fit your feet under the seat to paddle kneeling but with the lower seat position option, you can easily sit and have almost as much control. As for the Wenonah Solo Plus, when you try to combine features of a solo and tandem canoe you lose something in the handling quality for both conditions. The Solo Plus actually handles better as a Solo Boat then a Tandem, but as a Solo it’s a bit long (16-1/2 feet) and difficult to maneuver in smaller streams. As a Tandem, it’s more like paddling a barge. The bow is wider then you would expect for a tandem boat to allow for space for the Bow Paddler. One more thing the Initial Stability in the Solo Plus is practically non-existent. More then once I’ve been dumped out of the canoe only to surface and see the canoe floating high and dry. It does, however, have great secondary stability. I’ve also paddled Gerry’s Bell Northstar and it’s a wonderful Tandem Canoe. Best advice I could give you is test them out before you make that kind of investment.
Tom McG

**mohawkriverdan** · 10-22-2007, 10:03 PM

Thanks everyone for the great info. I am blown away by the honesty and sincere concern. Thank you all for helping me make a responsible,educated, purchase.

**canoe_junkie** · 11-06-2007, 09:16 AM

It sounds like you really want a Magic. If that's the case go for it, but you didn't really state what your intended use is. I have a Magic as well as a royalex Yellowstone Solo. Both are my favorite canoes of all time, but both are very different and really shine in different situations. The Magic will come up to speed and glide away... even more so with a load, but when loaded down it is not so agile. A fact that was driven home for me a few weeks ago when I was hit with 3-4' whitecaps in the middle of the BWCA.
The Yellowstone solo, formerly called the Wildfire (although the royalex hull was different from the composite hull) is such a sweet boat to paddle and turns effortlessly even when loaded down. However that same load takes away what little glide this canoe has.
The Magic is beautiful to look at (I believe that has a lot to do with it's popularity), with it's woodwork and moire weave pattern, but a Yellowstone Solo is equally beautiful when purchased with the same options. Admittedly, the Y. Solo is really my favorite of the two.
As far as layups go. If you are looking at kevlar, get the best you can afford. I have a Kevcrystal layup (the predecessor to Kevlite) and have yet to breach the hull even though I've used this canoe in whitewater fully loaded more than once. YMMV.

**yellowcanoe** · 11-06-2007, 02:47 PM

How much gear are you going to take? Even if you paddle the Merlin II as a pack canoe with a lowered seat its very trim and weight sensitive. Even a little bow down has very big consequences in handling. The performance at loads over 300 lbs is greatly compromised; its like paddling a slug, not a gazelle.

The Swift Shearwater is a very big but still fast solo; faster than the Merlin II for a guy your size. Its 16 feet long and designed for the larger taller paddler.

Buy boots. Once you have a fine boat you will never want to beach your boat again...its like sandpapering your new car.

It seems you are interested in a kneeling style..Chota Mukluks and the Swift Shearwater =FreeStyle potential..heel that puppy to the rail..its actually a fun boat when you can turn its sixteen feet into thirteen...

Yellowstone or Wildfire a little small if you are tripping..ok for empty day trips. They are different boats; one is by Bell and the other by Placid. Wild used to be made by Bell and there was one or two years of the "rubber Wildfire" that was redubbed Yellowstone. Dont know if that was because paddlers complained.

**charlie wilson** · 11-06-2007, 10:50 PM

Actually, the renaming of the Rubber wildfire, which has less stern rocker than the real WildFire had to do with contractual issues. Ted owed me X% on each WildFire sold, but the contract wasn't written when the rubber boat existed. Once billed for amount due, Bell changed the name, which is better for the sport. YellowStone is not a WildFire. One is a fine entry-intermediate hull, the other an intermediate- advanced paddler level hull.

**ADKWhaler** · 11-09-2007, 06:48 PM

I own a 17' Wenonah Jensen Tandem in kevlar. I had them put a center seat in it for solo use. It is good for solo fishing or camping, me and the dog. As a tandem, it has competed in the ADK Canoe Classic at least 8 times. Great boat. Not the best for speed or tracking when used solo.

I have a Wenonah Advantage solo, also in kevlar. Beautiful boat; fast and stable. I don't fish from it and don't carry the dog. It has performed well in the ADK Canoe classic. It is also good for camping.

I also have a Grasse River Boatworks Classic XL in the carbon lay-up. Weighs about 24 pounds. It has poor initial stability (for me-- I hate sitting in it, waiting for a race to begin), but is extremely fast and tracks like a bullet. Very stable once moving. I would use it for camping, not fishing and never with the dog. It is the canoe of choice for the solo open class in the ADK Canoe Classic. [btw: I am selling this canoe-- see the classified forum].

Canoes are like skis. Different boats for different uses. I have owned 5 different canoes over the last 20 years. Don't compromise too much, or you will end up with a boat that won't please you in any circumstance. Focus on your primary objective in paddling. I do recommend paddling the boat before you purchase.

Keith

Canoe decision help.

Canoe decision help.

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment