tent and lean-tos

[Neil]

It's built near a water source and placed in a strategic location for hiking, paddling or peakbagging. It keeps the rain off while providing a view. It has been made available to me free of charge and someone else maintains it for me. Hey, if there are a few rules then I'm cool with that.

If I'm specifically going to stay at a LT, which is not what I would think of as an emergency shelter (160 plus LT's in the Dacks = a lot of emergencies) then I am plenty aware that I have a good chance of meeting fellow back-country enthusiasts and I go with that mind-set. So far, all of my LT sharing experiences have been positive.

[Bill I.]

Since the lean-to are public property, and no fee is charged for their use, it would stand to reason that no one has any right, legal or otherwise to claim exclusive occupancy or use.

Actually, one of the reasons I prefer a tent to a lean-to is because I want privacy. I don't think that anyone who is wants privacy should have expectations of it in a public lean to.

I agree with you fully on both points. And since most lean-tos are located in conspicuous locations, it is silly to expect privacy in many of them.

But consider this--for the sake of discussion:

A tent site in the middle of the wilderness is also on public property, and has a legal limit of 8 people. So say you are tenting by yourself at a beautiful pond in the West Canadas, thinking you have it made and glad that you avoided that popular lean-to across the lake. Then 6 people move into your campsite and without asking start pitching their tents. You start to complain and mention that it isn't considered proper etiquette to just move into somebody's campsite like this, but they point that this is state land and is open to everyone. And technically, they're right. It may be the custom to respect each other's privacy, but "customs" and "etiquette" only work if everyone observes them.

Fortunately, I've never experienced this in a tent site, although I have had a few similar encounters in lean-tos. The worst was when 3 people attempted to move in at 4:30 am (?!?) when we already had 9 people camping on-site. They were rude, loud, obnoxious, and felt perfectly entitled to move right in. I freely admit that I confronted them and strongly asked them to move on to another campsite. Which they did.

Except for the High Peaks and the NPT, I have generally noticed that people who plan to camp at a specific lean-to are less flexible in their trip plans than other campers. I have seen people arrive at a lean-to, find it already occupied, and then set up their tents nearby as though there were no other campsites to choose from. Brooktrout Lake is a prime example, where last year I saw two women camping in the lean-to and a couple, unrelated to the women, in a tent about 80 feet away. When the women left, the couple promptly moved into the lean-to. Myself, I went the extra 20 minutes down the trail to a tent site on West Lake and had the place to myself.

My personal policy is to camp in lean-tos ONLY when I'm leading a group--and then I usually set up my tent beside it on the ground--OR in the off season when no one else is around.

And I do set up a free-standing tent inside from time to time, mostly to keep my dog from wandering around all night.

[Hairbag]

Unfortunately common sense is not common and therefore rules have to be enacted. Most people who set up a tent in a lean to aren't aware of the rule and therefore would not willingly take it down it there was a need.

[BrawnyMan]

If they're unaware of the rule, why would having a rule help in that case, assuming you're not a ranger.

I'm not sure if anyone is still following this post...BUT how about this scenario....

A group of 6-8 make camp at a lean-to. The lean-to is FULL! Does anyone who agrees with the NO TENT RULE still think that this group can NOT set up a tent? Does anyone think it's reasonable to report this group? If there's no room left, is it fair to let the large group use the lean-to as they wish, assuming they do not inflict any permanent damage to the structure?

[Neil]

You're not allowed to set up a tent within a specified distance of a LT.

[BrawnyMan]

You're not allowed to set up a tent within a specified distance of a LT.

1) Where is this rule written? What is the distance?

2) Let me clarify my senario...the group of 6-8 campers come to an empty lean-to and they occupy the lean-to to capacity. If it's all theirs, and no room for anyone who might mosey in late at night, is there a real problem? (other than the rule) Even if you think setting up a tent is always wrong, perhaps some of you agree that in this scenario, it's fair to let the group use the lean-to as they wish?

[Neil]

I think I read it on the ADK trailmap. There is a lot of information on that map regarding various regulations.

[Bill I.]

You're not allowed to set up a tent within a specified distance of a LT.

I can't find that one in DEC's list of regs.

For anyone interested, these regs are posted at http://www.dec.ny.gov/regs/2493.html. Note that there are "generic" regulations for the entire Forest Preserve, and then separate regs for specific wilderness areas (High Peaks and Whitney).

[colden46]

For what it's worth, I've been told by a ranger I was in the wrong when I pitched a tent right outside a lean-to. It was winter and I wanted the warmth of the tent and the convenience of the lean-to, so I put the tent up in front of the lean-to. The ranger came by and said I couldn't do that.

Camping is prohibited within 150 feet of a trail, which is how they might get you for doing this. The lean-to would be considered the designated camping spot, so camping outside the lean-to would not be in a designated spot and would be too close to the LT access trail to be legal.

I can't find that one in DEC's list of regs.

For anyone interested, these regs are posted at http://www.dec.ny.gov/regs/2493.html. Note that there are "generic" regulations for the entire Forest Preserve, and then separate regs for specific wilderness areas (High Peaks and Whitney).

[redhawk]

If they're unaware of the rule, why would having a rule help in that case, assuming you're not a ranger.

I'm not sure if anyone is still following this post...BUT how about this scenario....

A group of 6-8 make camp at a lean-to. The lean-to is FULL! Does anyone who agrees with the NO TENT RULE still think that this group can NOT set up a tent?

Yes, because now it will be more crowded, and it's still breaking the law whether the lean to is full or empty.

Does anyone think it's reasonable to report this group?

I wouldn't report them. I've never reported anyone. I have made them aware of the law so that they wouldn't get in trouble.

If there's no room left, is it fair to let the large group use the lean-to as they wish, assuming they do not inflict any permanent damage to the structure?

Only if they don't break any law.

There is no provision in the law like "unless lean to is full".

So in the long run it comes down to obeying the law. it's like the bear canister. i could say that since I have been hiking for 60 years and i know how to hang a bear bag, and have never had a bear incident, I shouldn't have to carry a canister. But again, there are no exceptions if you are in an area they are mandated. I do understand the reason for the law. So I have two choices, i can carry a canister, or I can not hike where they are mandated. I choose to do the latter.

Same with the lean to regulation. I do understand why it was implemented. So I bought a bivy sack to use on the few occassions where I will stay in a lean to and it might be "buggy".

I've just found it to be a lot easier and a lot less hassles to comply with whatever regulations there are. I don't agree with all of them, but I know that I'm not going to get them changed, so I just adapt to them. It's makes my life much simpler. And I don't have to worry if a ranger or a policeman is going to show up and write me a ticket.

Hawk

[Bill I.]

For what it's worth, I've been told by a ranger I was in the wrong when I pitched a tent right outside a lean-to. It was winter and I wanted the warmth of the tent and the convenience of the lean-to, so I put the tent up in front of the lean-to. The ranger came by and said I couldn't do that.

Camping is prohibited within 150 feet of a trail, which is how they might get you for doing this. The lean-to would be considered the designated camping spot, so camping outside the lean-to would not be in a designated spot and would be too close to the LT access trail to be legal.

Not that I'm disputing this, but this is the first I've heard of it. If this were strictly enforced everywhere, then lean-tos would essentially be useless for overnight camping from May through August.

I looked up the ADK High Peaks map that Neil referred to, and it does state as part of a list of "General Forest Preserve Camping Regulations":

1) Lean-tos must be shared up to capacity (8 people)
2) No plastic may be used to close off the front of the shelter
3) No nails or other permanent fasteners to affix a tarp. BUT, rope may be used to tie a canvas or nylon tarp
4) No tents inside a lean-to
5) No tent may be pitched beside a lean-to to increase capacity. (In other words, if you are camping with more than 8 people, you can't use a tent to make room for those extra people. But what about groups of 8 or less... ?)

These are ADK's interpretations of DEC's regs, not the official regs themselves. Items #1 and #5 are not listed in DEC's regs, so I'm not sure where ADK came up with them.