ADK Forum Newbie w/ a Few ?'s

[jd45177]

Hello Everyone,

My name is Dave and I live in southwestern Ohio. I am an Assistant Scoutmaster with my son's scout troop and I'm researching possible treks for the upcoming summer and I'm looking for advice anyone might offer on a trip to the Adirondacks. In reading a number of threads on this forum, I can see that there are people here that are involved in scouting.

Our troop went to Philmont Scout Ranch in New Mexico last year. We went on Trek 32 which is considered to be a super-strenuous trek. We backpacked 80 miles in eleven days, scaling Hart Peak at 8,000-ft., Baldy Mountain at 12,441-ft. and Tooth of Time at 9,000 ft. We trained for the trip by going on four separate 15 to 19 mile trips here in southwestern Ohio in the four months preceding the trip and we've done one 15-miler since, although the highest "peak" on any of the trips we've done here is 1,300-ft. The young men are in the 15-17 year old range. After Philmont, none of them want to go to a regular summer camp program and that's why I'm here.

One of the possibilities that has been discussed is the Boundary Waters in Northern Minnesota. Another troop in our city makes the trip there every year and they speak highly of it. I guess I'm ok with that, we would definitely be isolated from others and the fishing would be great but it's a 20 hour drive from here and it's all canoeing.

To get to the ADK's on the other hand, would be a 12 hour drive. My dad was stationed at Plattsburgh AFB and we lived there for 9 years back in the 50's and 60's and I have very fond memories of the Adirondacks and I'm thinking we would have at least as nice of a trip there as we would at the Boundary Waters. The areas that I would like advise on are as follows:

1 - Has anyone here been to the Boundary Waters and if so, how do the ADK's compare?

2 - Has anyone here been to Philmont and if so, how does backpacking in the ADK's compare, as in scenery,wildlife, physical requirements and overall satisfaction?

3 - If you had a choice of all backpacking, or all canoeing or a combination of both, what would your choice be and why?

4 - What areas of the ADK's would you consider?

5 - There are four Boy Scout camps in the region that have websites that I have looked at that offer high adventure treks, Summit Base, which is part of the Curtis S. Read Scout Reservation; the Sabattis Adventure Camp; the Rollins Pond Adventure Base and the Massawepie Scout Camp. Does anyone here have any experience with any of these camps or any others that could be shared?

6 - The cost of a 5-day trip through any of these camps range from ~250 to $300 pp. This includes some equipment (we have our own), transportation to and from the drop-off and pick-up points, food and the use of bear bags or canisters. Although this seems reasonable to me, does anyone here have any compelling reasons for planning the trek on our own, organizing it, supplying our own food and transportation?

We have 3-4 weeks to make a decision and I'm wanting to provide the troop with an accurate assessment. Any input would be very much appreciated.

Thanks,
Dave

[Wldrns]

5 - There are four Boy Scout camps in the region that have websites that I have looked at that offer high adventure treks, Summit Base, which is part of the Curtis S. Read Scout Reservation; the Sabattis Adventure Camp; the Rollins Pond Adventure Base and the Massawepie Scout Camp. Does anyone here have any experience with any of these camps or any others that could be shared?

6 - The cost of a 5-day trip through any of these camps range from ~250 to $300 pp. This includes some equipment (we have our own), transportation to and from the drop-off and pick-up points, food and the use of bear bags or canisters. Although this seems reasonable to me, does anyone here have any compelling reasons for planning the trek on our own, organizing it, supplying our own food and transportation?

Hello Dave.
Congratulations on having and maintaining a high energy quality BSA outdoor program.
There are more camps offering Adirondack High Adventure treks than the ones you mentioned. You can find a map of Adirondack BSA resident camps and council names/contacts here. Some of the council web sites appear to be down for January maintenance, but you can usually get a synopsis of treks and requirements on their web pages.

I wont play favorites, as you will be offered virtually the same High Adventure experience no matter which council's camp you decide go to. They all offer pretty much the same treks, which can be all canoeing, all backpacking, or a combination of the two. Strenuous high Peaks trail climbing, 50+ mile canoeing, fishing, backcountry bushwhacks, or a village pizza joint and an Adirondack Museum tour mid week, it's your choice how wild or easy you want to make your trek. Special arrangements can be made to accomodate most any request and type of trek.

You are free of course to go it on your own without being based at a council camp, but here's the standard of what you will get if you pay your bucks and go through a BSA resident camp with a high adventure program:

- A trained guide (your "Voyageur") will greet you at the camp on Sunday. He or she has been certified through a rigorous BSA National Camping School outdoor leadership and safety course, concluding in a 4 day field evaluation. He or she is certified current in wilderness first aid, lifeguard, and CPR, and will carry an appropriate first aid kit for you on trek. The amount of Adirondack wilderness knowledge you seek from the Voyageur is up to you, their primary role is safety for you and protection of the environment through LNT and state conservation rules and regulations. (I personally teach backcountry navigation skills to each and every Voyageur guide, so you can blame me if you get lost in the woods.)

- After introductions your crew will go through a health lodge interview and take a swim test. If you are canoeing and new at it, then some basic paddling and safety instruction on the water will follow.

- All you need to come with is your personal clothing and boots, a backpack, and a sleeping bag. If it looks like you may need it, you'll get a shakedown and instruction on packing your gear, and will be encouraged to leave behind that tenth pair of socks your mom packed for you. Use of your own tents is optional, otherwise you may borrow a camp high adventure tent. Other gear such as water purifiers, cookware, stoves, and you name it are on hand and will be provided if you do not have your own.

- Food for the trek is included in the cost and issued with the other gear. Type and brand of food may vary considerably from camp to camp, but generally count on commercially dehydrated or freeze dried backpacking food along with lightweight supermarket items. Some more "enlightened" programs are moving to much better choices than what was previously available. Food is carried on trek in camp provided bear canisters.

- Sunday evening you share in the evening meal, review trek plans, and may participate in campwide activities, including a campfire and a visit to the trading post before getting a good night's sleep.

- First thing Monday morning you and your Voyageur will get an early breakfast, then the camp bus will transport you and your gear (including camp canoes if needed) to the trailhead. You'll be turned loose to the experience of your Voyageur, who will ensure rendezvous at the predetermined pick up point on Friday afternoon. Depending on what you like to do, the Voyageur may offer different types of merit badge instruction along the way.

- Return to camp late Friday afternoon to a hot shower (please), then swim, enjoy dinner, and sharing of your experience at the closing campfire before departing for home Saturday morning.

So.... everything I mentiond above is what you get for your high adventure trek fee. You decide if it is worth it to you and your boys. Oh, and welcome to the Adirondacks.

[Wildernessphoto]

Ditto!

Hi Dave!
I would "ditto" what Wldrns said.
The cost per person is well worth it, for what you get. You also need to remember that the DEC has different regulations on group size and equipment for different areas. This past summer I ran into a BSA group of 11 (including counselors) at Flowed lands who didn't know the regulations and had to many kids, no bear canisters, and once the Ranger found them, he insisted that the split into 2 groups a mile apart, and go to the ranger outpost and get canisters to use that night, which had to be returned the next day. This tied up valuable hiking/climbing time, and they couldn't hang out together. It totally ruined they're trip.
A guild would make sure you don't run into those kind of problems, and you will spend about the same money doing it yourself anyway.
You have an invaluable resource in the camp programs that includes all the necessary equipment, and the knowledge of the regulations. you will really enjoy your time as long as everything goes smooth. The camp program makes sure everything is organized, and planned out to meet specific regulations.

The Adirondacks are well worth the trip! I would highly recommend you bring these guys to experience the area. If your looking for remote, I would recommend the 5 ponds wilderness, if you want to climb, I'd recommend the high peaks.
Whatever you do, you'll have a ball in the Adirondacks!
-Gary-

[Judgeh]

Troop 3, including my son, signed up for two excursions into the Daks out of Camp Read in 1999 and 2000. In 1999 they climbed 10 high peaks (I skipped two of them) and covered about 50 miles in 5 days of hiking. In 2000 we hiked from Upper Works to Long Lake and canoed north. Food, transport, guide were provided by the camp and we learned a heck of a lot. Nearly all of our guys went on to become eagles and are in college as I write. At their court of honor, the eagles spoke of their high peaks adventure as the highlight of their scouting careers.

A point to make is this, however. We never did the Philmont trek. My kids' first exposure to mountain climbing was the Daks and they had a wonderful and challenging time. My guess is that for simple excitement the Daks won't equal 8 and 12 thousand foot peaks, so they may be a little disappointed. The reason I say this is a year later, some of the troop talked of boredom on our Long Lake trek and wished we could have done another year of peaking.

My plan was was to start in the Daks and then go to Philmont. It never panned out that way. I have nothing but the highest of regards for the Camp Read folks and their summit program

[Kevin]

Gary covered the regulations issue, which was my main concern. Because I haven't hiked much elsewhere, I'll just say that (from what others have said) the ADKs offer a variety and beauty unique to this area. You get bare Alpine zones on top of the summits and dense, almost tropical foliage in the valleys. It's awesome hiking in the fall, you could be wearing a T shirt and shorts at the trailhead and walk into winter at 3,500 feet. Also makes for challenges since you have to be prepared for just about anything.

I've met a few groups of kids on the trail, and all of them appeared to be enjoying themselves immensely. If I had to make a recommendation for a long traverse hike, The Great Range and Rocky Ridge Peak to Giant are first in my mind. They could easily be combined for one long adventure with water falls and other tid bits thrown in.

[moomaw]

Dave- Your post brings back memories. I grew up in Cleveland and our Troop made trips to Philmont, the Adirondacks, Algonquin, the Allegehanies, and others (all about 25 years ago). Anyway, now living in the ADKs I have to say that you won't go wrong in this area. The variety is wonderful. The others have given much more info than I probably could about it. At the risk of being a traitor however, I have to say that our troop went back to Algonquin more than any other location. It is extremely remote and very beautiful. We canoed the back country for a week each time. I love canoing in the ADKs but it is a little less remote. Anyway, just another idea.

[JClimbs]

Group Size is, as mentioned, one of the real issues to keep in mind if you come out to the Daks. Staying at and utilizing the services of a BSA camp here (or Frontier Camp, a Boys Brigade Camp) would best serve a large group as you could then organize into 'legal' subgroups and alternate your trips, still having a good base camp to work from.
As a guide, I've found that hiking peaks seems to keep kids' interest more than long canoe treks. If the canoeing includes whitewater, that tends to change the perception, but it also tends to create a disaster, so I don't recommend that.
You might want to consider a hybrid trip, where you utilize BSA guides for hiking/camping/basecamp and use guide services for a whitewater raft trip one day. I'll note right off that I work for a guiding outfit, so I may be slanted in my opinion, but there are a few things such places do that a scout camp doesn't that I think are very worthwhile. First of these, the Hudson River Gorge is a great 17 mile full day trip and would add a lot of punch value to a trip out here.
I'm not sure what the BSA camps offer, but several guiding outfits offer rock climbing instruciton for groups, so that is an option. Rock and River is perhaps the best company to contact for that (No, they're not who I work for). The company I work for runs an excellent half day caving trip and a Canoe & Kayak Center where you can take a 5 or 14 mile paddle trip very affordably. I won't go all sales-talk here; if you want info feel free to ask.
I'm also regionally biased, in that I've been all over the country and decided to settle up here: obviously I like the place! There's good reasons for that and I believe you will see them if you come out here.

[jd45177]

I greatly appreciate all of the replies to date!

We had a scout meeting last night and a slight majority of the Scouts seemed to prefer the Boundary Waters. I was tasked with getting more information on both destinations. I have to convince them that the ADK's are more scenic. The scoutmaster is in agreement with me, we both prefer driving 16 hours less to get to the Adirondacks and back but we're going to let the boys make the decision. One of their arguments is that they seem to prefer not having a guide with us the entire trip, we wouldn't have one at all at the BWCA. At Philmont, we had one for the first 2-1/2 days and I learned that that bothered some of the scouts. On the other hand, I realized the benifit of having a guide.

Jclimbs, have you been to the BWCA? I should menetion that the summer before last we went whitewater rafting down the New River in WV and had a blast.

[Wldrns]

You might want to consider a hybrid trip, where you utilize BSA guides for hiking/camping/basecamp and use guide services for a whitewater raft trip one day. I'll note right off that I work for a guiding outfit, so I may be slanted in my opinion, but there are a few things such places do that a scout camp doesn't that I think are very worthwhile. First of these, the Hudson River Gorge is a great 17 mile full day trip and would add a lot of punch value to a trip out here.

We've had a number of scout troops opt for a hybrid trip, to include a day of white water rafting down the Hudson using a professional whitewater guide service such as JClimbs mentions. They've loved it. On another day they can still climb a peak, or go canoeing for an overnight. Just be aware that a small additional transportation fee will likely be charged for the multiple trips out of camp, and you'll also have to pay extra for whatever the rafting company charges.

[JClimbs]

I greatly appreciate all of the replies to date!

We had a scout meeting last night and a slight majority of the Scouts seemed to prefer the Boundary Waters. I was tasked with getting more information on both destinations. I have to convince them that the ADK's are more scenic. The scoutmaster is in agreement with me, we both prefer driving 16 hours less to get to the Adirondacks and back but we're going to let the boys make the decision.

Jclimbs, have you been to the BWCA? I should menetion that the summer before last we went whitewater rafting down the New River in WV and had a blast.

I have not been to the BWCA (sadly, all my trips roundabout passed through the southern reaches of Minnesota).
As a fellow youth group leader, it sounds like you have your work cut out for you! Just wonderful having a closely-split decision. Good luck making that executive decision!
If it helps, I've been told the Hudson is similar in intensity to the New River trip though a bit longer. My personal opinion: you've got mountains here and plenty of canoe waters: if the group gets sick of doing one thing, they've got the other option. You've also got other infrastructure (touristy stuff like Lake George's Million Dollar Beach, the Great Escape Amusement Park, Lake Placid's Olympic sites) and other things that make for a good 'coming out' day toward trip's end
Of course, those extra hours of driving sound horrendous, too....
And btw, if you're coming out in May my kid needs a ride home from C'ville. If you're coming out in late August keep a seat empty for the ride back

[percious]

I had the oportunity a few years back to do a 15 mile overnighter with the BSA, and I found it to be an enjoyable experience. The group was preparing for a trip to philmont, and there was a separation between the kids that were chosen to go, and the kid's that would wait another year. The kids that were going were very strong hikers.

I have never been to the Boundary waters, but I have to agree with the sentiment that if you have mountains and waterways, you have more options. The adirondacks has some excellent rock climbing opportunities also. In my experience most young fit boys at that age are excited to hit the rock, and it really wears them out, which is a good thing for the leaders. (last night at my local Y we had a BSA group of cubbies into climb...)

I can understand your kid's need for a self-guided trip. I think that the adirondacks offer many areas that you can accomplish this, but you need to be careful to heed the regulations regarding group size. In the Eastern High Peaks, there are no campfires alllowed, which may be a consideration. The Dix Wilderness area does not have this limitation, nor does the ?Western? High Peaks. (Sewards/Santanonis) One great area to bring a larger group is the Sewards, which offer multiple camp grounds evenly spaced over the course of a few miles. This way you can split up your group into sub-groups and even select A/B/C groupes depending on experience/strength. This area is all bushwhack peaks, which could be an adventurous time with some orienteering. All of the peaks have trails, but they are unmarked.

I think the recommendation to do a hybrid self lead/guided trip is a great idea. Spending a day or two on things that require guiding like rock climbing would be a great addition to a self lead backpack.

Whichever place you choose, I am sure you will have a good time.

-percious

[kurtteej]

Hey Dave:

The Boundary Waters is an awesome place to go. The potential issue that you may have is that the scouts are going to have to lug the canoes between lakes -- and most teenage boys that are growing might not have the energy or strength for it. It's a difficult trek.

To see critters up in the dax, you'll need to stay in the lower elevation areas. The high peaks tend to be low on the critter count.


Good luck

Kurt

[percious]

To see critters up in the dax, you'll need to stay in the lower elevation areas. The high peaks tend to be low on the critter count.

Unless you count pine martens (theifs) and Bears(bigger theifs) as critters!

I have seen plenty of both at Lake Colden.

By the way, I forgot to mention, but there are no fish above 2500ft. elevation in the Adirondacks thanks the the midwest.

-percious

[jd45177]

By the way, I forgot to mention, but there are no fish above 2500ft. elevation in the Adirondacks thanks the the midwest.
-percious

No fish?

[redhawk]

No fish?

Nope. Lakes are dead. Acid Rain from Ohio and other midwestern states!!