Hello - and a question

[kozesq]

Hello to all! Just found this forum a few weeks ago & joined up last night. Looking forward to getting to know you.

I spent Christmas in Indian Lake & took the opportunity to try to get some good images of Snowy for the page on it I maintain over at Summitpost (sadly didn't get to climb at all). Anyway, I drove down Cedar River Road, snapping pictures of the mountain below. Didn't quite look to me like Snowy from the West, but without a map I was at a loss. Now looking at my GPS mapping software I think it may be Buell. Can anyone tell if it's Buell, Panther or some other peak? Thanks in advance!

[Wldrns]

Anyway, I drove down Cedar River Road, snapping pictures of the mountain below. Didn't quite look to me like Snowy from the West, but without a map I was at a loss. Now looking at my GPS mapping software I think it may be Buell. Can anyone tell if it's Buell, Panther or some other peak? Thanks in advance!

Welcome to the forum...

To help answer your question I did some analysis on the information you provided. You probably have other information that could help if you think about it. Did you have a compass? Direction of the photo could help, and your best guess at location at the time. What else was around you, or what terrain had you recently passed, what was up ahead to help identify your position? Had you made the turn in the road that heads from generally west toward the south? How far back was that? Did you recently cross a stream/bridge, and was there any open or frozen water/pond near your location? Do you think you were near the big water of Cedar River Flow? What was immediately behind you on the other side of the road from the photo, flat terrain, or possibly the sharp rise of either Roundtop or Sugarloaf or Payne? What time of day was it?

Ok, all I know is what you said... "snapping pictures of the mountain below. Didn't quite look to me like Snowy from the West". That clues me you were viewing the mountain in the distance as you traveled for some period of time, and you thought you were viewing from the west.

Now to the photo itself. I looked at what the mountain could be, and eliminated what it could not be based on the clues at hand:
1. It is a prominent singular peak, relatively by itself with no other peaks in view.
2. Bright sunlight and location of valley shadows combined with possible views from the road you were on says south is toward the right (time of day would help further).
3. There are four distinct terrain regions:
a. The close-in foreground is obscuration free, then there is a region of wooded flat terrain slightly below the photographer's location.
b. The intermediate foreground highground terrain slopes gradually and constantly down from right to left.
c. In the mid-far region beyond is a broad high ground region, which could be elongated N/S, immediately in front of the background mountain. There are 2 broad ridges and 2 ravines descending in my direction. Other terrain details are there for study also.
d. The distant mountain itself, nearly flat on top tipping slightly southward. Broad gentle slope south, somewhat sharper undulating slope toward the north.
4. Nothing in the photo tells me I would not have been able to see this mountain for some distance if driving from the north. If I drive much farther south the nearby slope may well soon obscure everything behind.

Everything in the clues must relate to a position on the road and direction on the map. If I look at a topo map and analyze what can been seen from the road I can eliminate several candidates based on the requirement for b and c, including Buell and Snowy. Clue c does not look right for Panther, given where you would have to be for a and b and the apparent visual depth/distance separation required of b and c. One area on the map that seems to match all the observed clues gives strong credence to Burgess Mtn as seen from the lower northeast slope of Roundtop.

Of course this all could be the wrong conclusion. Observations outside the photo frame may quickly eliminate the Burgess Mtn hypothesis. Just one more of the unknown but knowable clues could change the whole analysis, but not the observed facts. It's a fun exercise anyway.

Check out the images of mtnview and profile here to see if this makes sense to you.

[kozesq]

You may be right

You may be on to something. My map from "Guide to Adirondack Trails: Central Region" only shows part of the Cedar River Road in the NW corner & doesn't have Burgess on it. Your "mountainview" image, plus a wider view from my GPS mapping software strongly suggest Burgess.

One problem is that I didn't take odometer readings from the Rt. 30 / Cedar River Road intersection, so I can't say for sure exactly where to start that end of the line of sight. Using my GPS software again, I got a sense of the distances along Cedar River Road. I estimate that I only went about 5 miles in before turning around; too short a distance to view Buell as a standalone peak.

The first image I posted was zoomed in; I've attached an unzoomed (?) image below. These were taken on December 27th at around 3 p.m. I've also attached a pair of images (zoom + wide) of this peak that I took closer to the Rt. 30 / Cedar River Road intersection. The only other clue I can find on the web is a shot somebody posted on my Snowy page at Summitpost. The caption says it's a view NW from the Snowy tower, and you can see a similar-looking summit going off the left-side of the image. I take 2 things from that image: 1) if the peak is Burgess, then that guy wasn't looking NW, but more like NE from Snowy and 2) the lower side of the sloping peak in his image seems to be on the East side, where in my image it seems to be on the West.

[Wldrns]

unzoomed confirmation

The first image I posted was zoomed in; I've attached an unzoomed (?) image..... The only other clue I can find on the web is a shot somebody posted on my Snowy page at Summitpost. The caption says it's a view NW from the Snowy tower, and you can see a similar-looking summit going off the left-side of the image.

I've attached a topo overlay of what looks to be the field of view of your unzoomed image. It provides further evidence that everything fits Burgess, because you have added the clues of your mileage and the expectation that Panther Mountain should come into view toward the south. I have high confidence that Panther Mtn is within view behind the spruce tree on the right side of your unzoomed photo. The continuing lowland to the north also fits, and the other previously observed clues plus time with sun angle remain consistent with the Burgess Mtn hypothesis.

The other guy's photo from Snowy matches the NW direction ok. The flat top high point on the left side of the image would be Block Mtn, the rounded peak on the right is Buell with it's subpeak further to the right. The view is right down the valley between Block and Buell.

[lumberzac]

I think its Panther Mountain. I used Google Earth to look at both mountains from the position you gave on Cedar River Road. Using the software Panther Mountain looks more like the mountain in the picture.

PS. I think you are right about the picture on SummitPost. I have almost the same shot looking NE from Snowy. http://community.webshots.com/photo/...69363636bsohFC

[Wldrns]

I think its Panther Mountain. I used Google Earth to look at both mountains from the position you gave on Cedar River Road. Using the software Panther Mountain looks more like the mountain in the picture.

Both mountains seem to be in view in the Panther GE projection so it is difficult to tell from that image which one GE is centered on. What leads me away from Panther is the intermediate slope B. If we are indeed looking at Panther, then the viewing position is farther south on the road than I have indicated, in order to put something resembling region C in front of Panther. In that case then from the map, region B would be a continuous rise toward the east, continuous right on up to elevation C instead of first dropping down into Sprague Brook. Nor would it slope much down toward the north in that view. From kozesq's photo that does not appear to be the case - there seems to be a substantial gap behind B before we see anything at all of C, plus B's gradual lowland slope down left. Also in kozesq's zoomed out image, if the mountain in the center is Panther, then Burgess should appear not far to the left with a bit of relatively high ground between them...but there is nothing like that in the photo. That ground better fits to the right of what I consider Burgess.

Isn't this fun?

[Wldrns]

On the other hand...

If a picture is worth a thousand words, being there must be worth a thousand pictures. Just one more bit of information was enough to clinch its identity as Panther.

Today I found the exact spot where kozesq was standing for the original picture, right down to the shrubs at my feet. The mountain came into view, due south, shortly before I reached the spot. It could only be Panther in that direction from where I was on the road.

I had assumed from kozesq's original post that he was to the west of the mountain, and I wrongly tried to match terrain in an easterly looking direction. Now knowing the view is due south places the camera position almost a mile northeast of my originally estimated place. I went there - from that wrong viewing place the mountains to the east are in fact highly obscured by dense trees in the foreground. I should have realized that as another location clue had I paid more attention to my 1:25,000 scale real paper map instead of the 1:50,000 scale from NGTopo that I had set for easier viewing of the entire region on the computer monitor.

The good news is the 4 regions of landscape still match with map and photo from the correct camera position. Two steps to the right of the original photo reveals Burgess visible from behind a tree on left frame. A wide panoramic photo shows it all, including the sun at noon directly over the summit of Panther. All it took was knowledge of rough compass direction to make the identification certain (or lumberzak's software).

[Wildernessphoto]

All's I can say is... you guys are good!

[kozesq]

Excellent job!

Ditto on wildernessphoto's comment, and many thanks to wldrns & lumberzac for figuring it out!

Now, does anyone know if Panther and/or Buell are accessible? The map I have from Guide to Adirondack Trails, Central Region seems to show the boundary between private and public land right passing right near the summits of both, with the shaded (private) area including both actual summits. I also don't see any trails, but that's nothing a good bushwhack can't fix.