lean-to etiquette

[Emily T]

Please don't attack me for a lack of sensitivity...I really just want to know.

I was backpacking in the "Dacks" last weekend, and my friend and I found an available lean-to on our first night. We set up camp there. From there, we did a day hike the next day, which took most of the day. When we returned, there was a tent set up, on the grounds of the lean-to area, unoccupied. There were several available tent sites in the area, which these campers did not take. They returned from their hike, that night, and camped in their tent. They weren't rowdy by any means, but, their late night conversation/laughing noise kept us awake for quite a while.

My question...what is the protocol here? When I hike, I want to find as much solitude as possible. Certainly, if there is no other shelter, or imminent bad weather, I would always invite someone to share a lean-to, or my tent if needed. However, under normal weather circumstances, if I had planned on staying at a lean to and found it occupied, I would not pitch my tent next to it. I would seek out an alternative.

Was this an isolated incident, or is this regular procedure?

[Riosacandaga]

I agree with you that the other group could have been more considerate. I'm not sure what the ... eh 'sensitive, polite, empathetic' protocol is... my protocol would not be the one I'd advise anyone else to employ. I'm interested to read what that may be also.

[redhawk]

I guess it depends on what "protocol" you are talking about. If there are several legal tent sites at a lean to, then its first come first served with whatever choice one wants to make. You might have been lucky that they took a tent site because protocol would have mandated that you share the lean to with them if they chose. There is no "first come, reserve the lean to". Its open to as many people as the capacity of the lean to.

As far as inviting someone to use the lean to in inclement weather, no need to. They have as much right there as you, even in good weather, thats the official protocol for lean tos.

If you want solitude, take a tent and pitch it far from any lean tos or places with multiple campsites. thats the only way you can ensure privacy and solitude.



I prefer tenting to lean tos becuse it allows me some privacy. if you are looking for privacy, don't expect it in a lean to.

As far as the noise goes, one whould hope that others would be respectful, but they may not think or realize that their behavior is annoying. Chatting around a fire is part of the social experience of camping and the larger the party, the more noise. Again, don't expect to camp in a lean to and be guaranteed solitude.

[Kevin]

There's also regulations as to how close to a lean-to tents can be placed, which is why in most cases you'll find designated camp spots marked near a lean-to (but not immediately around) that are several hundred feet away. Think it has more to do with impact on the environment than anything else.

I feel your pain, have been there myself when camping. Unfortunately I've accepted that there's a good chance anyplace I go that is trailed will have people there. Good news is that most of the people I meet are courteous and kind. It's the exceptions I have to 'live with', and even in those cases it was more an issue with my needs not being met than something they intentionally/unintentionally did.

[Dick]

Two issues here. First the tent next to the leanto. I have seen a regulation that says "No tent may be pitched next to a leanto to increase capacity" but no specific distance is cited. As Redhawk mentioned, some people may not realize they are being loud, and there's nothing wrong with politely asking them to be more quiet especially if late-night. As for "occupying" a lean-to, it is a public facility open to all to the capacity of the leanto (Leantos "must be shared by groups up to the capacity (eight persons) of the leanto."). I'm sure many don't know about this regulation. However, I have seen people try to "take over" a leanto, put up a tarp (as a wall, not a rain shelter), spread out their gear to make it look like it's full, erect a tent inside of a leanto, and so forth, sometimes accompanied by that "look" that says "move on, stranger, this is our leanto!" All of that is against protocol. That said, to avoid confrontation, I always have a tent with me.
Dick

[jwellford]

I'd say that technically their choice of camp site was against the rules. If it's near the lean-to but isn't a designated site (with a tent sign--just because the ground is trampled doesn't make it a designated site) it breaks the 150 ft. from the trail rule and the next to a lean-to rule.

That said, I would definitely not have asked them to leave. I doubt most rangers would have either. Live and let live. As others mentioned, you were lucky they didn't join you in the lean-to and keep you awake from there as it was their right to do. In either case a polite request for quiet is definitely appropriate.

[Gray Ghost]

They had no right to pitch a tent next to the lean-to you were using. That is the kind of ignorance I can't stand on the trails. I also find it annoying when people use lean-to sites as tents sites, thus hogging an entire camping area unneccessarily. I saw this with a group of boy scouts at Pharaoh Lake last year. Their ignorant leader should have led them to a designated tent--many of which were open--instead of using the lean-to as a shed to store their gear.

I know the regulation says you have to let others share your lean-to if it is not at capacity, but--criticize if you want--I have ignored that rule before. Last year at Pharaoh some guy stumbled onto our site at 12:30 AM wearing a Cowboy hat and waking us up with a "howdy." He said he had a tent so I directed him to an open tent site nearby. I DID NOT welcome him with open arms to join us in our lean-to. I know I open myself up to criticism here, but I am only down with camping with strangers in inclement weather or another drastic situation. The way I looked at it was if he could walk in there with his headlamp, he should be able to set up this tent as well. -GG

[Gray Ghost]

While we're on the topic of lean-to etiquette, I'd also like to voice my disgust at the disappearance of the lean-to journals/logs. It really irks me when I see one missing and I realize that some yahoo either burned it or kept it as a souvenir.

[redhawk]

I understand the wish for solitude, and peace and quiet. It's one of the major reasons I hike, although now that I can't safely backpack by myself, much of that is lost.

Because of the popularity of the dacks and the seemingly new quest of every person who can afford a pair of hiking boots (or not) to play Daniel Boone or Betsy Crockett, it becomes more and more difficult to experience the solitude of a few years ago. So the best thing to do is to stay away from the high peaks, the Raquette, Pharaoh Lake and other popular sites. Even the NPT is beginning to get enough traffic that one cannot ensure privacy, even on the Southern End.

I find that going to the places that are more difficult to get into, tougher hikes, and off the beaten path is the best chance to get some peace and quiet.

What I understand is that the Dacks, and all other places were not created for Me, (note the Capital M!). I also know that none of the lean to's were built expressly for my own personal comfort or enjoyment. Therefore I take my tent and try to find a place to camp that suits me (now I have the Hammock, it opens up many more possibilities for privacy). I have pitched my tent in a lean to site when I have hiked with other people who are staying at the lean to.

The problem becomes compounded when you have people who are unaware fo the "rules' about sharing a lean to and assume it's first come first served. I have come across city people from time to time who have for whatever reason pitched a tent in a lean to, unaware of the fact that it is against the rules (not to mention just outright stupid!). I usually try to have a little casual conversation with them and then let them know that it's against the rules and that a ranger or DEC cop might write them a ticket. That's usually enough for them to move the tent elsewhere or pack it and use the lean to. If they get "attitude" then so do I and mine usually trumps theirs.

Then you get the ones who do know and just don't care. I usually tell them that I'm going to contact a ranger and let him handle it and then go a little distance but within sight and pull out the RINO and simulate a conversation. Usually they think I am somehow contacting a ranger and hit the trail.

At any rate, often we just need to educate some people politely and see what the result is. It usually works best.

I also assume that if I am planning on using a lean to, that more often then not, I may have to share it with strangers. Most of the time, that's a positive experience for me. On the few occasions where people are rude or inconsiderate, I just teach them some manners.

Finally, I think we all need to remember that when their are groups in the woods, the fellowship around the campfire can become louder then we realize, especially when we discuss something we have a passion about. Without realizing it, our voices and enthusiasm may be such that we are keeping others awake without realizing it.

[lumberzac]

While we're on the topic of lean-to etiquette, I'd also like to voice my disgust at the disappearance of the lean-to journals/logs. It really irks me when I see one missing and I realize that some yahoo either burned it or kept it as a souvenir.

That irks me as well. They are often the first things I look for when arriving at a lean-to. I enjoy reading them and they also provide a lot of information, like trail conditions, bear activity, or the location of a ground hornet's nest. This information is quite valuable when you are backpacking, especially when you are doing a long trip such as the Northville-Placid Trail.

[kurtteej]

My understanding of this is that a tent can only be pitched within 15 feet of one of those yellow tree tags. If there is no yellow tree tag then I don't believe that a tent may be pitched.

I spent the night at Lake Colden a couple of weeks ago. There are 2 lean-tos along the lake, both were taken so I kept walking. I walked beyond the end of the lake to a pretty dry stream bed, crossed it and camped in one of the tent sites along the stream. I preferred it because I had a lot of privacy, it was nice and quiet (except for the guys banging pots and yelling at around 9:30).

I agree with your frustration, but I also agree with RedHawk. They have the same rights as you to the spot (as long as there's a yellow tree dot). I just wouldn't have intruded on your site unless invited.

[shaggy]

From my experiences, Leantos in that area are a social event. solitude may possibly be obtained in less frequented areas. I do think that their tents may have been illegally placed though if they were that close?

shaggs

[Emily T]

Interesting stuff...

Thanks for all of the replies. I figured the lean-to "rules" meant that anyone could stay there, up to capacity, and beyond, in an emergency situation. Understand that I did NOT set up my tent inside the lean-to, and we did not spread our "stuff" all out. I was just wondering if there was an unspoken protocol about sharing the space.

Personally, I would never jump into a lean-to that was already occupied, even if there was plenty of room left. But, that's me. Redhawk, your points about solitude are well-taken. And, I always bring my tent with me.

On another point, this lean-to's log was also in "disrepair." Many pages missing. What was left made for interesting reading. We left a wax firestarter candle behind on the lean-to shelf, so the next person isn't compelled to burn the book for their campfire.

Thanks again for the facts and opinions!

[skidoc22]

it was nice and quiet (except for the guys banging pots and yelling at around 9:30).

May have scared the bear away though...