Search coordinates from cell phone delayed for a week?

[timberghost]

There's been no lack of conflicting info and confusion in the coverage, for instance, initial reporting (on 4/2) was:

A Glen Spey resident has been missing since the early morning hours of Thursday, March 30, and a search is on looking for him.
...
Hoyt’s friend, who managed to make his way safely home, placed a call for help on Saturday morning, according to the missing man’s family.

“His friend said they became separated in the woods, and while he was able to get home, he did not call for help until Saturday,” said Hoyt’s sister. “No one has heard from or seen my brother since.”

While later report states:

The DEC said, "On March 31, five DEC Forest Rangers responded to a request for Ranger assistance in the search for a subject who went missing after off-roading with a friend on March 29.

March 31st was Friday, and while dates don't match it appears the search was initiated 2 (if not 3) days after Harold went missing.

There's no clear indication on who the lead agency was from the start. If there was no clear incident commander, time went by before a request for cell data was placed - how much time only those involved know.

The lands and roads in question are private, does that matter? I don't know, but it may depending on who took initial missing person report how they proceeded.

And again, what role did FBI play? why was the bureau involved? and why did "enhanced cell data" come from them and not the cell carrier or NYSP?

[TCD]

"What makes you think "authorities took a week to decide to get" this data?"

Everything in the story so far makes me think that.

[timberghost]

IDK, looking back over coverage, it's claimed the search started on Friday the 31st afternoon... who knows sad outcome nonetheless.

Best details I've seen:

https://riverreporter.com/stories/missing-man-found-deceased,92048

https://riverreporter.com/stories/da-dec-provide-details-on-search-for-harold-hoyt,92664

[Wldrns]

The statewide call for trained SAR volunteers to come to the site first came to me and others on 3 April at 0733.
Flat tire in back woods and got lost looking for help, missing since 30 Mar.

[timberghost]

>Once "authorities" (a global term to include all authorities) decide to produce this data, it's done using electronic systems, and it takes very little time (minutes, maybe) to produce.

The first question should be why and how was FBI involved in this? It's a local, or at best state jurisdiction - unless there's much more to this than meets the eye, it would seem someone from local / state agencies asked for "help" from the feds when they couldn't get "results" and this takes time.

If "enhanced" data is not just filtered and collated data from the carrier, it would use DoD level algorithms / systems that would have to run on supercomputers and would need more than a few minutes (not to mention the time to file all the paperwork to get it in the que)

Again, none of the details changes these facts. The question remains, why did authorities take a week to "decide" to get the enhanced data?

What makes you think "authorities took a week to decide to get" this data?


Bottom line is we don't know what we don't know.

[TCD]

After all this "technical" stuff, I share BobK's concern. I don't think these details change anything.

>The technical ability to produce the enhanced data existed from the beginning.
>Once "authorities" (a global term to include all authorities) decide to produce this data, it's done using electronic systems, and it takes very little time (minutes, maybe) to produce.
>Having this data sooner (let's say one day vs. 7 days) might have made a difference in the outcome.

Again, none of the details changes these facts. The question remains, why did authorities take a week to "decide" to get the enhanced data?

[Craig]

Many factors come into play. It isn't clear who got the call first. If the call didn't go via 911 to a local PSAP, then one of the three phases a 911 center receives is off the table.

Phase 0 call is routed to local PSAP and presented as a phone call with no data provided.
Phase 1 call is routed to local PSAP, and the caller's phone number is provided.
Phase 2 call is routed to local PSAP with the caller's phone number and Longitude/Latitude or triangulated coordinates (along with enhanced data of the cell tower address, cell sector, and pANI number).

If he was reported missing/overdue by a family member to the local police (or FBI), then it's anyone's guess what was given to the police by the caller.

Any law enforcement agency in New York State can subpoena the cell phone company to obtain records/account information of a customer, which is quite possibly how this went about. With this avenue, cell phone providers can provide "enhanced" information to the local police.

No conspiracy, just a different way it was handled from the beginning.

[timberghost]

Let me preface this by saying I have no direct knowledge about this incident. Nor can I say why a person supposedly wearing a "maroon Carhart jacket" wasn't found sooner with air assets involved.

If you read that public report carefully, you'll notice it says "Rangers received enhanced cell phone data from the FBI" (see the emphasis there?)
Raw cell location data and "enhanced" data are two completely different animals.

First let me point out (the obvious) the report does not mention missing person ("subject") dialing 911, so his device did not send GPS coordinates to dispatch.
Second cell ping data, especially in areas with sparse signal and few towers is typically not accurate or reliable in pinpointing exact location.

Raw data is cell ping log data (time stamp, tower number, and signal strength from specific device)
Enhanced data is processed to compensate for environmental conditions (rain/snow/fog/wind/etc, RF anomalies, terrain attenuation, and possibly other factors)

The "capability" (as Bob K calls it) is likely a very closely guarded secret by many agencies and NY is not likely to get the level of access feds have to this technology.

If you remember back when that Malaysian airliner vanished from radar over Indian ocean, there were quite a few discussions and examples on sat data "enhancement"... and despite all the efforts nothing's been found to date.

I think we can all agree that SAR is a very difficult job and much depends on "preparedness" of the individual being sought.

This case is a puzzle we may never get an answer to, there were reports of the men getting a flat tire in one article, running out of gas in another. The guy who made it out took days to report his "friend" missing. Results of the autopsy were never publicly announced (though that could be anything from family request for privacy to gag order)...

[Wldrns]

You are correct in questioning the details and timeline . I did not participate in this particular SAR incident, due to logistics and distance from my Adirondack area home base. I also questioned the FBI participation in this one. Normally the DEC gets cell location coordinates by other standardized means. Unfortunately, as is one of my pet peeves, the full after action report is normally not available even to those who were directly involved in the search. The two day delay that the "friend" took to report his missing companion is unusual and suspicious. There is a NYSFEDSAR quarterly meeting for all teams next week. I may be able to get some additional limited information at that time.

[Bob K]

I have a question about NY State Police and Forest Rangers getting accurate, timely information when conducting a search.

See this recent ranger report from DEC:

Town of Forestburgh
Sullivan County
Wilderness Recovery: On March 31, five Forest Rangers responded to a request for Ranger assistance in the search for a subject who went missing after off-roading with a friend on March 29. The Sullivan County Sheriff's Department and New York State Police (NYSP) K9 units were also on scene. The search continued until April 7, with up to 65 people from local fire departments, search and rescue groups, and volunteers searching each day. DEC Forest Rangers coordinated the search with 26 Rangers covering a one-mile radius from the subject's last known point. ATVs, UTVs, drones, and a NYSP helicopter were used during the search efforts. On the morning of April 7, Rangers received enhanced cell phone data from the FBI that placed the subject southeast of his last known point in an area that had not been searched. At 12:40 p.m., Ranger Allwine found the subject deceased. He was identified as 35-year-old Harold Hoyt from Glen Spey. Search crews carried the body approximately three-quarters of a mile out to the road for transport to the County Coroner. Resources were demobilized by 7:30 p.m.

My question: how is it that it took a week, AND getting the FBI involved to get accurate last known position from a cell phone? Once that info received (different from what was used for a week) the subject was found shortly thereafter. Why don’t top NY State officers have that capability day one of a search? I know we may not be told the full story in these incident reports, but I’m puzzled by this.

As someone who spends lots of time in the woods, often solo, the delay in getting good location info in this story bothers me a bit.