82 year old hunter missing

[EagleCrag]

I agree with Tug on the blaze orange issue. I realize that by not wearing it I may be putting myself at more risk, but that is a choice that I get to make, not the government. Where I hunt in the northern zone I'm lucky if I see 5 other hunters in the woods during the season. The southern zone is another matter entirely and when I hunt there, which isn't often, I certainly do wear orange--a choice I make.

[Schultzz]

He my have followed a sighted deer thinking he might get a shot and wandered off counting on his outdoor skills, and got lost and wandered some more, so his remains may still be out there, just not where others have looked. Camo makes it much more difficult to spot. If that is the case someone bushwhacking will eventually find his remains.

[Wldrns]

He my have followed a sighted deer thinking he might get a shot and wandered off counting on his outdoor skills, and got lost and wandered some more, so his remains may still be out there, just not where others have looked. Camo makes it much more difficult to spot. If that is the case someone bushwhacking will eventually find his remains.

That's certainly a possibility. Mr. Messick was a former long-time gun safety instructor and knew the outdoors well, although this was his first time in this particular area where he disappeared. But (without passing any medical judgement) suspicions were that he was "getting forgetful" at his age. All too common in a high percentage of SAR incidents these days.

Other less likely and more distant areas, out to a 1.5 mile radius from place lasst seen, may only have had a single tightly spaced line crew pass through. Do the math on area coverage to see the manpower difficulty of full coverage in rough terrain with no directional guidance from any found clues. Trails leading out of the area and any structures were checked much farther away than that. Divers checked local ponds - all were quite shallow. Helicopters with IR cameras flew several days for hours.

I asked one of the volunteers on my crew who was wearing dark camo to lay down next to a log, to show the crew what we might expect to see. He all but disappeared from view. A quick glance from an inattentive or too widely spaced crew member could easily bypass him. That's why a large most probable area where SAR statistics showed he would likely be was criss-cross grid searched from multiple directions.

Years ago when I hunted a lot with my dad, wearing blaze orange clothing other than an orange cap was not very common, though we sure did wear heavy red plaid wool jackets. But we also hunted an area where we knew we were in there alone, or with people we knew.

[wiiawiwb]

From what I've read, Mr Messick had a two-way radio which would have enabled him to stay in contact with his party if he wandered off due to a sighted deer.

Has the family, or Encon, ever released a map of his last known location and direction of travel?

[Blackhawk]

where's a Columbo type investigator when needed.

many things can be said about these types of missing person incidents where a body isn't found.
I remember one major incident where numerous law enforcement and public service types were used to search for a missing person (a possible murder victim) covering thousands of square miles - but they wouldn't allow private citizens to help in the search. after a certain point in time I say it's any port in a storm - use every tool and method available and then some.

were all of mr. Messick's hunting party members and others who were hunting in the region that day interviewed?

is there a website or facebook page/group or website out there that is gathering information, questions and answers from the date/time mr. Messick went missing and before?

i'm sure that when intelligent, open minded people put their heads together they can make a difference in solving anything.

could foul play be responsible for mr. Messick's disappearance?

did he did he develop amnesia, wander off and is living in another state?

was it an unreported/unknown hunting accident?

was mr. Messick shot by one of those hunters who use their rifle scope instead of binoculars?

please reply with your questions, comments or pm if you wish.

thanks,

[Tug Hill]

There are plenty of people who have gone missing in the ADK's and have never been found.
This may just be another unfortunate incident with no foul play involved ?
Or he could have surmised that Hillary or Donald would be our next president, and skipped to Canada. :>)

[Wldrns]

From what I've read, Mr Messick had a two-way radio which would have enabled him to stay in contact with his party if he wandered off due to a sighted deer.

Has the family, or Encon, ever released a map of his last known location and direction of travel?

The FRS radio was one of the hot specific items searchers were looking for. Nothing ever came of it. Actually such a radio was found, obviously had been there quite a while and obviously not his.

I don't think it was ever a question or not of releasing the location of place last seen (PLS). He headed due east from a point on the road about a half km north of Lily Pond.

I remember one major incident where numerous law enforcement and public service types were used to search for a missing person (a possible murder victim) covering thousands of square miles - but they wouldn't allow private citizens to help in the search. after a certain point in time I say it's any port in a storm - use every tool and method available and then some.

Do you know how badly I wanted to assist on the search just a year ago for the escaped prisoners from Dannemora? Of course I would not be allowed to... all searchers had to be active law enforcement types with special training for that type of thing, and to be prepared and authorized to shoot if necessary (turns out it was). But since then I have had formal training on how the formalized analysis and planning for field operations is done, often burning hours of the midnight oil before sunrise, so maybe I could assist in the plans shop if not in the field during any future such incidents. Rangers I have known for a long time and LE are well aware of my training and ability.

However, the 2-day Land Navigation course I teach for the state has doubled enrollment by LE since their experience in the north woods near Dannemora. Most non-DEC LE types had no idea whatsoever how to navigate in the woods. We're trying to change that.

were all of mr. Messick's hunting party members and others who were hunting in the region that day interviewed?

Of course, that is standard protocol for any search. Not just the hunting party, but other family and known associates who were not even on site. There was a high presence of highly trained senior law enforcement officials there every day, which I have seen is normal procedure in large campaign searches of this type.

wis there a website or facebook page/group or website out there that is gathering information, questions and answers from the date/time mr. Messick went missing and before?

The family had a facebook page up during and after the search activity. I have no idea how long they kept it up, maybe it still is.

i'm sure that when intelligent, open minded people put their heads together they can make a difference in solving anything.

There is a large body of study on missing persons, with detailed formal and standardized procedures for analyzing and processes for carrying out such an incident. There is much experienced input from Rangers and LE on past incidents, both nationally and local, and a good deal of high level statistical math that goes into every planning function. After each day's search, new data is put into the models and hours of planning and analysis goes into modifying and improving the next day's operational activities. It is far far more just gathering a bunch of rangers and volunteers to head off into the woods. The process has been developed over decades of research and analysis of thousands of previous incidents. There is an excellent track record of success, but like anything else you usually only hear about the difficult ones. Most cases are resolved one way or the other fairly quickly, some take a bit more time, a small percentage are never brought to conclusion. That's just the way it goes.

QUOTE=Blackhawk;246411]could foul play be responsible for mr. Messick's disappearance? [/QUOTE]That is always an open question on any search incident. Detailed investigations by professional law enforcement begin on day 1 of any search incident.

did he did he develop amnesia, wander off and is living in another state?

SAR incidents that involve the elderly and alzheimers are becoming increasingly common. We don't think Mr. Messick had a serious case of any such ailment, but it wouldn't take much to get into real trouble out there. One never really knows what is in someone else's mind. We sometimes badly joke about a long term missing guy being with his girlfriend in Florida. A very bad joke.

was it an unreported/unknown hunting accident?

Not sure what you mean by this. Investigation by LE would have turned up evidence and not gone in the direction it did for 2 full weeks.

was mr. Messick shot by one of those hunters who use their rifle scope instead of binoculars?

He was hunting with family, who by all appearances were concerned and loving (and were interviewed in detail). There was no report of any other hunters in the area, and no reports of gunshots.

[Blackhawk]

thank you very much wldrns for informing, educating and communicating with the masses on these types of searches for lost or missing individuals.
and thanks also for your patience in writing detailed responses to member questions or comments. education, training and technical information saves lives and brings closure to loved ones and peace to all involved.

[peskypup]

Rensselaer County Search and Rescue was in the area yesterday, I assume looking for Mr. Messick. Their mobile unit and maybe 8-10 cars were parked in the field near the access road for Lilly Pond.

[Wldrns]

Rensselaer County Search and Rescue was in the area yesterday, I assume looking for Mr. Messick. Their mobile unit and maybe 8-10 cars were parked in the field near the access road for Lilly Pond.

The SAR teams of NY (26 of them as part of the NYS Federation of SAR teams) regularly train several times a year by organizing "mock searches". The DEC, working with the teams, encourages such activity in areas that still have unresolved missing person cases. You never know what might turn up during a realistic training event.

[peskypup]

The SAR teams of NY (26 of them as part of the NYS Federation of SAR teams) regularly train several times a year by organizing "mock searches". The DEC, working with the teams, encourages such activity in areas that still have unresolved missing person cases. You never know what might turn up during a realistic training event.

Thanks Wldrns. I figured it was probably part of some periodic training exercise. It's good to know there are people out there still looking for the missing even after the case goes "cold". No matter how much time passes, I'm sure it would bring some comfort to their families to finally have some some form of resolution.

[Schultzz]

"thank you very much wldrns for informing, educating and communicating with the masses on these types of searches for lost or missing individuals.
and thanks also for your patience in writing detailed responses to member questions or comments. education, training and technical information saves lives and brings closure to loved ones and peace to all involved." Blackhawk

DITTO

[Blackhawk]

'Not sure what you mean by this. Investigation by LE would have turned up evidence and not gone in the direction it did for 2 full weeks.

He was hunting with family, who by all appearances were concerned and loving (and were interviewed in detail). There was no report of any other hunters in the area, and no reports of gunshots.'[/QUOTE]

'He was hunting with family, who by all appearances were concerned and loving (and were interviewed in detail). There was no report of any other hunters in the area, and no reports of gunshots.'[/QUOTE]

while there was 'no report of any other hunters in the area' there still could've been others hunting there.
and while i'm not familiar with the area in question gunshots may not be heard depending upon terrain and other variable conditions.

I've spent many years hunting with family and friends in wilderness areas of the 'dacks. on one occasion while sitting around the campfire with my hunting party another group of hunters joined us. the one brother sitting next to me said his brother was shot and killed by another brother while deer hunting. I can't verify this incident at this point but it happens.
it happened several years ago about 5 miles from my home. two buddies deer hunting after well sundown and one buddy shot the other who died instantly.
another incident where family was bowhunting together well after sundown and the brother-in-law shot one of the brothers - he died instantly.

in another incident I heard the shot that took the life of a hunter approx. 1/4 mile away - that incident was determined to be a suicide within a short period of time - [too short imho] - without a thorough investigation.

there are good investigators but there are also investigators who lack common sense and experience.
there are ethical hunters but there are also unethical hunters.
there are searchers who know the woods and signs and there are also those who don't.

i'm hoping someone has made the decision to go back and doing the search operations over again - perhaps using different techniques and methods the missing hunter will be found.

[cityboy]

This tragedy is eerily similar to what happened to a friend of the family a few years ago. His father was out hunting at night and separated from the group. Police were unable to find a trace. After about a week the two sons searched and found him at the bottom of a watery brush pile. He apparently had a heart attack and fell into the stream and was swept under. I suspect something similar here.

[wiiawiwb]

People hike, bushwhack, hunt, and camp in the Lily Pond and neighboring area. I think it would be enormously helpful that those in charge of the search (NYS Police?) release a map showing the areas considered thoroughly searched with a high degree of confidence.

In the future, those who go into the region would be able to focus their attention on the areas neighboring it. Essentially, it would be mobilizing a civilian search squad. I can't see any downside to doing so and, were he my family, I would have strongly urged the NYSP do so so a long time ago.