Good news on the ATV Front

[Creekwader]

http://www.wrgb.com/news/local/local_news.asp?selection=article_30843

[ADackR]

this is a good thing for sensitive trails and areas that see extended use. i do however disagree with a complete ban.... the public lands are for everyone to use and not just a few... i wish that the state came up with a way to allow the use of ATV's on approved roads....***edit*** after reading the draft, it seems that this is the case... hopefully the ATV's will realize this and take care of that resource....

there are already many roads in the ADK's that allow this and are marked by the ATV rider signage.

http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dlf/publands/atv.pdf

[Tom McG]

Atv

The way I read the Draft is that DEC is proposing banning all ATV use on open lands and trails in the Catskill and Adirondack Forest Preserves. ATV's would be restricted on Roads unless it is the only access from one legal ATV Trail to another legal ATV Trail. This is part of the Motor Vehicle and Traffic Law the Draft refers to. DEC is leaving it open to allow (if certain criteria is met) to DEC owned state forests, unique and reforested lands outside of the Forest Preserves. They may also allow ATV use on roads in easement lands.
Tom Mcg

[Creekwader]

[QUOTE=ADackR]this is a good thing for sensitive trails and areas that see extended use. i do however disagree with a complete ban.... the public lands are for everyone to use and not just a few...

In the spirit of win-win negotiation I'd be inclined to agree with you on this point but the way I see it, any trail that becomes an ATV trail ceases to be for 'everyone' because only the ATVs will be able or want to use it. Plus, they've had access over the past couple years on roads in Wild forest areas and have demonstrated that they cannot resist the temptation to stray off the legal roads.

[redhawk]

My thought has always been that since there are so many trails for snowmobiles in Upstate NY, why do people need to bring em into the dacks.

I asked the same question about Yellowstone too, with all the wide open space in Wyoming and Montana, why did they need to bring the ATV's and Sleds into Yellowstone?

I'm checking the PO every day for a reply from Dubya!

(Along with my congratulatory letter for winning the publishing house sweepstakes from Ed McMahon.)

[AdRegion]

My thought has always been that since there are so many trails for snowmobiles in Upstate NY, why do people need to bring em into the dacks.

Adding snowmobile to this debate certainly fuels the flames!

Both are similar in their environmental impacts, but the ATV is King when it comes to erosion and damage. If the only people in the North Country riding ATV's and Snowmobiles were from outside the area, solutions might be easier to find. Unfortunately a big core of these riders are local and ride on a mixure of public and private. Regulation and Enforcement of any new rules must be considered.

My personal position - no motorized vehicles in Wilderness areas period. Within the Blue Line, mmm, maybe that might go to far. Jet Skis? These are the bane of my paddling existence.

[Judgeh]

I must agree with Creekwader. To share a trail with a motorized vehicle of any kind is to cede sole use of that trail to those vehicles.

[redhawk]

Adding snowmobile to this debate certainly fuels the flames!

Both are similar in their environmental impacts, but the ATV is King when it comes to erosion and damage. If the only people in the North Country riding ATV's and Snowmobiles were from outside the area, solutions might be easier to find. Unfortunately a big core of these riders are local and ride on a mixure of public and private. Regulation and Enforcement of any new rules must be considered.

My personal position - no motorized vehicles in Wilderness areas period. Within the Blue Line, mmm, maybe that might go to far. Jet Skis? These are the bane of my paddling existence.

I meant to say ATV's. And you are correct about the ATV's being the worst for tearing up the trails. And for whatever reason, most people who have them have to drive them in a manner that does the maximum damage.

I agree with the Judge about all motorized vehicles being banned on public lands.

We were snowshoing out of Auger Falls a couple of weeks ago, along the river. A beautiful winter day, crisp, clear, pristine. Suddenly the silence was broken by a couple of snowmobiles on the trail on the other side of the river.
For the next 15 minutes, the most noticeable thing was the smell of the gasoline fumes.

I will say that the snowmobiles do not do a lot of trail damage, but the sheer numbers of them tend to impact the woldlife and the wilderness.

I have also seen trails that have been torn up by mountain bikes and they are not motorized.

The reality of the situation is that, like anything else, the problem is not the machines, but the people who operate them in an irresponsible manner.
What is needed is strict rules for where they can be operated and the way they can be operated. There should be strict speed limits on trails that are shared with bacckpackers, hikers and bikes, and restrictions against anything that would be considered "reckless" (spinning, wheelies, etc). That needs to be backed up with serious penaties that are enforced. Like a minimum $1000 fine and confiscation of the vehicle.

A couple of enforcements and the word would get around in a hurry.

All vehicles should also be required to have numbers, like boatys that can be read from a distance to make notation and reporting of violations by civilians easy.

Seems to me that puts all the onus on the people and not the vehicles. Only ones who could really complain about that would be those who are knowingly going to act irresponsibly.
The other thing, No one who does not have a valid drivers license should be allowed to operate any motorized vehicle on trails or roads on public lands.

Lets face it 1/2 the problem is that some of these vehicles are operated by kids who are not mature enough to be responsible. Not trying to knock kids but it's a fact.

[Tom McG]

ATV Bill

There is a bill in the Assembly (A04137) that addresses some of the issues that RedHawk brought up. If successful the bill would require perminate license plates on the front and rear of all ATVs, registration at the time of sale, fine from $100 to $250 or “…impoundment of the ATV if; it is operated on other routes than those designated within the forest preserve; a second violation within 18 months of failure to register an ATV; it is operated on any public or private lands not designated for such use; and operation of an ATV upon any public or private property within the state during the commission of certain crimes.” (Quoted from the bill)
The bill also calls for an increase in the registration fees from $10 to $20 with half of the fee going to the ATV Trail Development, Maintenance and Enforcement Fund. Among other things this fund would be use to create ATV trail on private lands.
I don’t believe there is a corresponding version of this bill in the Senate, yet.
Tom McG

[ADackR]

i hear what your saying redhawk about the recklessness of riders and their affect on the environment... if it wasn;t for those select few (just like most things) the entire population of riders (snowmobiles or ATV's) wouldn't really be having soo much of an issue.

to stay on topic, i have not come across an ATV on the trail.... i have however seen the destruction from them and it is quite bad. i know that the designated roads can support ATV traffic and i hope that the ATVr's can respect that and not spoil it by running off those designated roads and ruining the land....

to go off topic, i have come across many snowmobiles on the trail and never once have i had an issue with them. i maybe could see a time when in a highly overrun snowmobile area that the irresponsible riders getting on my nerves but never in the back trails..... it could be though that i have chosen to ski in areas where a snowmobile could not ride any faster then 20-30 miles an hour beacuse of the trail. so i could have a biased opinion BUT i have never minded meeting snowmobilers out on the trails, very friendly people....

oh yeah and i do for some reason like the smell

[Rivet]

I have encountered ATV's on the trail. I don't have a problem with them per se - just the ruts that the leave behind. They often become permanent puddles. This leads to detours and more destruction.

[AdRegion]

We had an 8 year old boy die just a couple of weeks ago riding his Grandpa's brand new ATV. Sort of off topic, but ATV related. Another North Country tragedy.

[redhawk]

BUT i have never minded meeting snowmobilers out on the trails, very friendly people....

oh yeah and i do for some reason like the smell

Yep, friendly in most cases.

My whole case is the noise and the air pollution. One of the reasons I backpack is to get away from it all. The helter-skelter pace, the noise and the smell.

I think there are places for snowmobiles, I just don't think that wild forests and wilderness areas are the place. Nor do I think that national Parks such as Yellowstone are the place either.

In most cases, the National Parks are supported by Federal Taxpayers money and snowmobilers and ATV'ers are a very small percentage of that base. If I had my way, places like Yellowstone and the other parks would be closed to automobiles also/ People would park at the edges of the park and then be shuttled by some kind of mass transport like a tram or bus, preferably running on battery or propane to the scenic places. I also feel that some places should not be easy to get to, because then the people that invest the effort into getting there appreciate it enough to use "leave no trace".methods.

Back in the 70's I packed into Yellowstone for a week on a horse. I was on the back side of Lake Yellowstone, where there were no roads or trails. I did not encounter another human, nor see any traces. That experience exceeded by tenfold, the time I went in by car and then hiked some of the trails.

The thing is, to do things right, some people are always going to be denied use or access. The answer is to limit the most primitive, (wilderness and wild forests) areas to vehicular traffic of any kind, and in necessary to limit foot access in certain months if it causes negative environmental impact because of runoff erosion. I would prohibit foot traffic in areas that were designated for ATV's and snowmobiles.

The biggest problem is the "human attitude" is that they have a God Given Right to go where ever they want, do whatever they want but they never seem to understand that they have a "God Given Obligation" to be caretakers and not exploiters.

I always have a problem with people telling me that they have a right to do whatever they want to do on THEIR property. I have yet to see a deed that was signed by the Creator. And NO ONE has the right to do anything anywhere if it has a negative impact or effect on the lives and rights of others.

[nazdarovye]

Hawk - I agree with you completely.

We have a pretty serious problem out here in CA with snowmobilers. For some reason, they seem more aggressive, more inconsiderate here than most of those I ran into back east.

We personally have experienced being run off trails by snowmobilers while we were out snowshoeing or skiing; snowmobilers heading into clearly marked prohibited and wilderness areas (e.g. inside the boundary at Mt. Shasta) to run up and down hills; and even a group that seemed to purposefully run rings around our camp and stop to idle their machines just yards from one of our tents. We did nothing to bring any of this on.

They have a very strong lobby here and continue to get concessions from the Forest Service and others to allow them into areas where they're really just not a fit. By letting them into those areas, the Forest and Park Services are ruining the experience for the far larger number of people that just want to hike, camp, ski and snowshoe out in the wilderness - not to mention the environment and critters living there.

There's also already technology out there to make the snowmobiles quieter and pollute less. I really think that, at the very least, the snowmobilers should grant that concession to the rest of us and upgrade their machines so that they are less intrusive and damaging.

I know there are people out there who use snowmobiles responsibly...and people who need them for access to their homes and recreation; my complaint is specifically with the noise, mess, and those snowmobiliers who abuse their privilege, the environment, and those with whom they share the snow.

- Steve

[Ned Kipperson]

The biggest problem with ATVs is that the owners (legal ones) buy insurance, and pay for registration, and the DMV actually tells them it's for trails, etc., and they get nothing. I'm not a propenent of public lands being used for ATVs unless they pay for it per use, kind of like bringing the family to a campground and making a lot of noise and garbage. Too much liablility and trail maintenance for the ATVs. One reason snowmobiles are more accepted is that they said enough is enough, and they started clubs to improve the image and make them more mainstream. Most snowmobile riders are courteous and wave and even ask how the skiing is once in awhile.
The problem with ATV's is that they ride on private and public lands without impunity, they run from law enforcement, they're the main transport for deer poachers (too fat, stupid, and lazy to actually work for their deer) and the trails leave permanent erosion, unlike snowmobiles. It's like other groups who cry that they are persecuted, but unwilling to go the extra mile to become responsible. It's kind of like buying a .30-.06 in Manhattan, and complaining that you can't target practice off the balcony. You want something to do, go hike, fish and hunt, don't go hauling ass through the woods ruining the trails that you don't own. Unfortunately, they are fun as hell to ride.