More Mountain Lion stuff - New studies cast doubt.

[Mavs00]

Another cougar article: -ROCHESTER DEMOCRAT & CHRONICLE-

Just saw this article in my local paper, figured I pass it along. Seems like more of a local "college level" independant reserch study than a fully funded DEC study, so who know the depth of it, or even if the validity.

Still, its interesting none the less, as its an oft discussed topic in these Northeastern wilderness/hiking forums.

Scientists have estimated that a single mountain lion kills between 44 and 100 deer per year and leaves more than 11 million individual paw prints. Yet no track has ever been verified in New York, and only one deer carcass in recent years has even prompted debate as to whether a mountain lion could have been responsible, Orkin said.

This passage makes reference to -THIS- 1993 internal DEC memo of a cougar kill site found in the Oak hill area just east of Keene, NY. It's only one of two "confirmed" cougar sighting in the Northeast in the last 100 years.

[redhawk]

For several years there were mountain lion "sightings" in Ohio. Many of the sightings were from experienced outdoor people and there were also tracks found. The powers that be out there first said that the tracks might have been made by "pranksters" (in several different parts of the state) and that they were sure there were no mountain lions. Only if a "real mountain lion" was killed or captured would there be any definitive proof.

Within two years, a hunter shot one and when the carcass was brought in, the authorities said that "it could have been shot elsewhere and transported into the state" (although they offered no explanation as to why someone would want to do such a thing. Shortly after that, A mountain lion was killed by a truck on the Interstate. The officials promptly concluded that the cat "was probably someones pet that had run away"

So figure. I know this. I have seen Mountain Lions in the West, in South Dakota, Colorado, Wyoming, Montana and Alaska. I know what they look like. I can identify a mountain lion from a distance.

I have seen a mountain lion on Abrams road in Wells. Wells is located within the Adirondack Park. To the best of my knowledge, no one in Wells has a mountain Lion for a pet. There are no mountain lion importers in the neighborhood.

Therefore I will conclude that there are mountain lions in the Adirondacks. I don't care what the DEC, EPA, USFW, or for that matter anyone else says. I have seen the cat and that's good enough for me. I can say with 100% certainly that there is at least one mountain lion in the Adirondacks. Anyone stating anything to the contrary would have to be ignorant. Just because they haven't seen one, does not mean they do not exist.

How many moose are there in the Adirondacks? How many people have actually seen any? Since most people (including residents) haven't seen any, does that mean they don't exist? I know that in the years that I have lived here, I have yet to see a skunk or a raccoon. Does that mean that there aren't any?

[kurtteej]

i agree with redhawk. I've never seen one, I've never seen a moose up there either, but they've gotta be up there. I've only ever seen 2 moose -- 1 ran past me in Maine as I was grilling a steak (about a 2 year old) and the other in a lake up north of Banff in a deserted campground (the national employees were on strike and shut down all state run facilities) walking around a marsh near the lake at about 5 AM when the sun was barely up.

i guess we have better or more garbage on Long Island because I see racoons almost every day and have even seen a few possums (both probably crawl thru the fence from Belmont Race Track).

The last skunk I saw was about 10 or 15 years ago camping in Chenengo outside of Binghampton.

[Mavs00]

Don't get me wrong, I just posted the article FYI, for additional perspective. Sounds more like a college reseach project that anything "official" so it may not be worth the paper its printed on.

Myself, I've never seen one personally, but certainly have heard from enough (what I consider) credible people that say they have to certainly make me think there may be. Everyone can't be misidentifying coyotes or bobcats, can they? Certainly, the cougar kill site (in the memo), plus the accompanying sighting by a DEC official at the same time certainly indicates there was at least 1 at that time and place.

However, there are few lingering doubts in my head to prevent me from fully beleiving there is a wild, breeding population, other than 1-2 isolates that may be captive releases (which I don't count as proof of presence). Chief among my doubts is that there has NEVER been a additional concrete evidence, like dead cougars, scat, verifyable tracks, ect. to make me wonder.

Like I said, I'm leaning more to the "they are there" camp than the "they are not". But certainly, given the lack concrete proof, I would not consider anyone that didn't beleive to be "ignorant". Ignorant IMO would be Hawk's Ohio example. To discount dead animals, as opposed to "sightings" is a whole nother ball game. While I tend to thing there are some, I think it's reasonable to individually conclude either way if, like me, you've never personally seen one and can only rely on "other peoples sightings". Hawk's in different boat than me (and from most of us I would guess) since he has his concrete proof (his own eyeballs).

-----------------------

As for Moose, never seen one, but have seen TONS of proof in the form of scat. Thier scat is pretty distinctive from deer and once I had someone show me the difference, its been pretty easy to distinguish between the two. Moose are really in the Cedar Flow, E. Cedar Lakes and Indian Lakes areas pretty thick. I've done a bit of B-whacking in there and its pretty common to see crap in there.

[redhawk]

I wasn't on your case.

As for the ignorant reference, I am saying that just because someone has not seen a mountain lion in a wilderness, to conclude that there are none there is ignorant. Wheras if someone do9es see a mountain lion, there is the proof that there is at least one there.

I'm just tired of the game the bureaucraries play in order to avoid doing what they are pledged and paid to do.

[Gray Ghost]

It seems like if there are any here, it must be an incredibly small population. As Mavs article pointed out, if a single cat has to take down at least 44 deer a year, one would think a kill would eventually be found. But, on second thought, I found a kill last year and attributed it to coyotes. I bet that a lot of people out there have walked away from kills thinking the same thing. I hope I am able to one day see a cat in the ADKs myself. Hawk, did you see it while hiking/driving?

[poconoron]

I believe I read somewhere that the late Barbara McMartin also spotted a mountain lion crossing the road in front of her car while driving on route 10 near Averys.

I would also be interested in the circumstances of Hawk's sighting.

There have been a few confirmations of mountain lions in Quebec in the past few years and my hope is that whatever very small population that may be in the Northeast U.S. may be supplemented by cats from Canada. Perhaps one day the ADKs will have a viable population.

[redhawk]

The cat was by the woods on the side of the road on the back side of my house. I was about 60 feet away.

[Mavs00]

I wasn't on your case.

I'm just tired of the game the bureaucracies play in order to avoid doing what they are pledged and paid to do.

I knew you weren't

I agree with the second statement completely, almost to the degree that, as you say, shows ignorance. I can certainly understand a hesitation in claiming populations of these animals, because once you "officially" state that you have a population of federally protected animals, state resources (which are pathetically low anyway) need to be allocated. So therefore, you really ought to be DAMN sure you actually have some, before making that pronouncement.

But it seems, most places, there is an automatic "knee jerk" reaction to immediately discount EVERY sighting (or any other evidence) as misidentification (for ordinary sightings) or as captive releases for times when the proof is irrefutable. If the evidence is overwhelming and multiple "credible" sightings of cats are reported in an area, then there are likely cats there, and by just saying " your mistaken, it must have been a bobcat" to everyone just doesn't cut it (IMO).

Take Delaware as an example, in 2002, the Delaware Dept. Natural Resources released this statement.

The Delaware Division of Fish & Wildlife believes that there are currently at least two, and possibly more, free-roaming cougars in the State. The DNREC has confirmed the presence of cougars in the state over a period of several years. Officials are convinced that these animals are of captive origin. Sighting reports and confirmations of their presence have generally come from New Castle and Kent Counties. Evidence includes home video footage, pictures, tracks, scat and sightings by DNREC staff & law enforcement personnel. The pictures and videos are definitive. There is also evidence that the cats are regularly feeding on white-tailed deer and Canada geese. No reliable evidence exists of cougars taking domestic animals or threatening humans.

Evidence they could not ignore told them "we got cougars", but then to say, on the next line, but we're "convinced that these animals are of captive origin". DUH, do they presume all of us so stupid to believe that, within a short period of time, a bunch of people decided "hey, lets release our pet cougars, it'll be fun". Its one thing to have a few parakeets to fly out the window, but it's a whole other thing to let a few full fledged predators go out the back door. How often can that really happen? And how come it's just cougars (and wolves), animals that, while expatriated, once roamed freely in these areas, that are escaping?

Captive farms and animal traders also deal with the more exotic animals too, like tigers, african lions or lepards. You'd assume that if cougars are escaping (or being let go) some of those puppies would escape too, right.... You never see things like "Division of Fish & Wildlife believes that there are currently at least two, and possibly more, free-roaming Siberian Tigers in the State."

sorry for the rant. . Like I said, juries still out for me, but I tend to think there may be a few, but I'd like to see a little more proof to be convinced too. But once the proof is in, I'd hate to see state officials "cope out" and cry "captive release"

[AdkWiley]

I'm not sure if anyone has posted this articel before or not but its from teh Adirondack explorer and lists mountins lions seen in ther adirondack park and the locatrion and who saw them and all that stuff. its a good read http://www.adirondackexplorer.com/apanther.htm

[Mavs00]

And how come it's just cougars (and wolves), animals that, while expatriated, once roamed freely in these areas, that are escaping?

Captive farms and animal traders also deal with the more exotic animals too, like tigers, african lions or lepards. You'd assume that if cougars are escaping (or being let go) some of those puppies would escape too, right.... You never see things like "Division of Fish & Wildlife believes that there are currently at least two, and possibly more, free-roaming Siberian Tigers in the State."

I just read that article (thanks Wiley). Apparently, I stand corrected, next time out hiking and I see one of -THESE-, I know it's escaped Serval. I always wondered what thaey were

Good article, lots of "credible" sightings. For those that found the tracks, I wish they would have got them documented. Thats better proof than a sighting (IMO).

[Boreal Chickadee]

Good article -thanks for posting the link. I know at least one of the DEC rangers, I've taught his kids in class. Crdible sighting.

I've only seen bobcats in New York but about 25 years ago a mountain lion crossed the highway in front of my car in Maine just below Milinocket. Talk about excitement! That creature was unmistakable and the sighting of a lifetime for me.

[Mavs00]

How timely.................

It'll be pretty hard to ignore -THIS ONE-

[AdkWiley]

man i whish i coudl see the video they're talking about!

[poconoron]

This may be additional proof that the big cats are on the move in southern Canada- Quebec, Ontario, etc. If so, it may be just a matter of time before they become "established" in the northeastern USA backcountry.

They will, of course, have a high hurdle to clear though, since the same people who don't want wolves around to take "their" deer will be gunning for the mountain lion. And the big cats are easier to hunt since they tend to "tree" when pursued by dogs. Hopefully, if it comes to that, the hunting with dogs would be banned.

Here's another link on Ontario mountain lions, though I don't know how they calculate there are 550 of the big cats- hope they are right:

http://www.ontariopuma.ca/