Bigfoot sightings? (serious question)

[SacandagaSchout]

Very interesting points, Montcalm. I'm interested in bigfoot because it's a mystery, and one that is cosmic in scale if you go deep enough down this rabbit hole. And it's certainly not for lack of concern over immediate, material problems, or a lack of interest in the great scientific questions of the day.

But it's very interesting you mention bigfoot as a type of distraction from real world problems, particularly global warming and ecosystem destruction. It's interesting because much of the discussion of bigfoot as a supernatural entity revolves around this idea that bigfoot serves to remind mankind of its roots in nature, its interconnectedness with nature, and its the fact that its future relies on respect for nature.

Bigfoot is basically (and this is not debatable, it is a matter of fact in the study of folklore) a modern continuation of the tradition of the western European "wild man" myth, a Jungian archetype that springs from our collective unconscious. Every culture has this myth/archetype--Australian aboriginals have the Yowie, Tibetans the Yeti, PNW Indians had Sasquatch, etc., etc. A Jungian analysis would have bigfoot as a projection of our collective unconscious and a manifestation of our aspirations for a rejection of our technological civilization (which has wrought countless unique health, mental, and social problems, as well as a currently unfolding ecological disaster) and a return to our primordial roots as dwellers in nature. (Similar to how a Jungian analysis would have our observation of "UFOs" as a projection of our collective unconscious's aspirations to be a space-bound species).

So to summarize, bigfoot can instill a deeper appreciation for nature on a society-wide scale--changing thoughts and beliefs on a society-wide scale is what myths and folklore do. Seeing bigfoot, contemplating bigfoot's existence, just the image of bigfoot, is a reminder that we sprung from nature and that, although we have rejected nature in many ways in modern life, our fate as a species is intertwined with it. Hopefully our society's collective fascination with bigfoot will guide us away from an extractive, exploitative relationship with our planet, to a relationship that is more harmonious.

Finally, one more point I think is also interesting. You wrote,

"And even if that doesn't tickle your fancy, and you want something a little more intangible and ethereal, there's the matter of modern physics and "dark" energy and matter, which is on the brink of breaking everything we know to be true. We're on a the edge of discovery there far greater than what Newton or Einstein bridged for us in the past. A cold slap in the face that despite how far we've come, the universe will not give up her secrets to us so easily. And this is one, that if solved, will go down as one of the greatest discoveries of humankind, ever."

I was listening to a podcast today with Joshua Cutchin, the author I previously mentioned, and he was saying that many try to "science up" the discussion of non-human paranormal entities by saying they are "interdimensional." But, he continued, if we don't sufficiently understand other dimensions, what's the difference from calling it the "otherworld," or "fairyland," or "heaven?" And it may just be that these other worlds are unknowable (in a material, scientific sense). That doesn't mean we shouldn't keep looking. But it may mean that we need to adopt a less materialistic, less literal, more spiritual worldview to fully understand the world we occupy and interact with it in a productive way. You might say we need to have more faith.

[montcalm]

Right - I'm quite fine with the study of folklore and what that means. There's nothing wrong with a good story.

Where I get off the rails is the effort trying to prove such a being exists. I can get that some people experience something they can't explain and try to figure it out, that's natural. But at some point you really need to look at research from the basis of human nature and understand that some people doing research are simply charlatans. Others are believes who let their emotion and faith blind them. There's no shortage of them in any branch of engineering or science. This is where we walk a really fine line of asking is there anything there? Is it worth our effort (and by that I really mean time and money, because these things really do distract people from real issues)?

As far as your last remarks in relation to what I said and trying to add science to the myth, IMO there's a tricky relation there in which you have to use some common sense and say: If this being is found, and it is interdimensional, will it show us something? Will we learn something? Does it actually know anything? If it does, and it hasn't shown us, then it doesn't want to. All those things.

But really the fact of the matter I tend to think of is what the forefront of modern physics may show us in terms of extradimensional nature (which is likely a reality, although maybe not in the sense of furry beings popping in and out of existence, but something even more crazy on a scale we can't even imagine). We like to think of things our size and shape, but nature has no binding to this particular form. The reality is often much stranger and much harder to grasp. It takes far more thought, far more creativity and far more work to unravel. But if we do, we may be able to come back and look at these type of things with a more founded basis and see actually what may be going on. But often trying to solve something extremely complex without understanding the underlying physics is like trying to build a pyramid upside down. And that's an important "law" of fundamentals that we need to remember when investigating anything.

[SacandagaSchout]

Just a few things:

"But at some point you really need to look at research from the basis of human nature and understand that some people doing research are simply charlatans. Others are believes who let their emotion and faith blind them. There's no shortage of them in any branch of engineering or science. This is where we walk a really fine line of asking is there anything there? Is it worth our effort (and by that I really mean time and money, because these things really do distract people from real issues)?"

- I think you would be surprised by how scholarly some of the works I've cited are. But I agree, there are lots of charlatans out there. And as I mentioned before, people who are running around looking for literal bigfoots and literal flying saucers are wasting their time. In my opinion, anyone claiming to know "the truth" about any of these things knows exactly the opposite, or has been deceived--even stranger and creepier is that the beings themselves may be responsible for this deception, as many seem to embody the "trickster" Jungian archetype, sending people off on wild goose chases for unknown reasons. This is discussed in John Keel's books, particularly "The Mothman Prophecies" and "The Eighth Tower," as well as Jacques Vallee's book "Messengers of Deception."

"If this being is found, and it is interdimensional, will it show us something? Will we learn something? Does it actually know anything? If it does, and it hasn't shown us, then it doesn't want to. All those things."

- I doubt bigfoot or UFOs will literally lead us directly to a wormhole, although that would be cool. I think the things we can learn from them are more metaphorical and spiritual in nature. More self-revelation about the nature of reality, less revelations about literal physics for example. More mind-meld, less warp drive, for example.

"modern physics may show us in terms of interdimensional nature (which is likely a reality, although maybe not in the sense of furry beings popping in and out of existence, but something even more crazy on a scale we can't even imagine)."

- "furry beings popping in and out of existence" reminded me of another scientific-tinged explanation for these phenomena (of which I am skeptical obviously), but in "Hunt for the Skinwalker," Colm Kelleher discusses the idea that the "many worlds" scenario that is predicted by quantum mechanics, in which every possible world exists on an infinite spectrum, explains why we have completely extraordinary sightings of strange creatures that seem to pop in and out of existence--given enough permutations of possible reality, you will inevitably have strange things happen. Just something to think about--which is what really makes this all fun for me.

[montcalm]

Keep it rollin' SS - I admire your curiosity.

I'm vaguely familiar with "many worlds", but it seems like a tough one to prove. Unfortunately years of engineering have hardened me from (scientifically) accepting ideas that aren't able to be rigorously tested, and/or that do not have multitudes of repeatable and observable data. (As I re-read that it sounds super pretentious but the fact of the matter is you really have to be that way to succeed in bringing things from idea to reality - so I won't apologize).

Some ideas, which there's nothing wrong with, get into the realm of science fiction. Meaning that the interpretation of the data could lead to these type of possibilities, but really they are embellishments of what is really a very rudimentary observation of a natural phenomena. I know people like to put them out there for shock value or to make them sexy. But as fun as it is to think about, some of them hold little weight in terms of plausibility. Sometimes they can spawn another thought in another generation that fits better. You really can't predict how something like that will play out.

[Buckladd]

Wow, good to see this thread revived, a topic that has always interested me. Nothing against you guys digging deep, but I just like looking at it in simpler terms; someone sees something, or at least they have a good reason to believe they did. I’ve had several people – some who I’ve known for years – confide in me their tales, especially in the Adirondacks, and most are interesting and believable.

As for literature, go back about 50 years and find a book called Bigfoot: On the Trail of Sasquatch, which documented all kinds of early 20th Century Experiences. And look up the Just the Facts Youtube channel or Podcast. Some wild stuff there.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCALaO58yDzt0djpHNGZqCDA

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-facts-by-howtohunt-com/id1497981883

Lowjack12: I'd like to know more about where you had these experiences, without giving away your fishing spots.

[Wldrns]

So my grandfather, who came to this country around 1900, would tell tales of beliefs of wolves/werewolves, vampires and other creatures from his village. His homeland was in southeastern Poland, on the edge of the Carpathian Mountains, just a short skip from famed Transylvania. My older brother visited the area many years ago and heard similar stories from existing relatives he found. The stories told were part of the culture that everyone believed. Some stories were frightening and ghastly, but have rational explanations if true facts were known.

[Schultzz]

Very interesting, Schultzz. As a firm believer that there is much that is unknown and more that is unknowable, I can't dismiss anything out of hand. But I am curious what the basis is for this information. Where does this information come from?

Thanks for your post. All the information is from a website and two books by Dr. Matthew Johnson, a clinical psychologist from the state of Washington. Apparently the US government believes there is something to it from the two incidents of Blackhawk helicopters and SEAL attempt at seizing the site forcibly but retreating twice because of something they witnessed with heat sensing cameras.

Sounds incredible but the government has all but admitted the existence of alien presence via UFO's. So times are changing and lastly, I too have had experiences with this phenomena. My advice is to read the books and judge for yourself with a plethora of convincing testimony from credible witnesses.

[Schultzz]

So my grandfather, who came to this country around 1900, would tell tales of beliefs of wolves/werewolves, vampires and other creatures from his village. His homeland was in southeastern Poland, on the edge of the Carpathian Mountains, just a short skip from famed Transylvania. My older brother visited the area many years ago and heard similar stories from existing relatives he found. The stories told were part of the culture that everyone believed. Some stories were frightening and ghastly, but have rational explanations if true facts were known.

Lots of anecdotal stories have existed from ancient times. One wonders if the stories were legends from protective parents attempting to control their children through fear, or if these tales had some credible proof somewhere along the way. However, the information I presented DOES have credible truth to it IMO but of course you are free to express your own theory or not.

Over a hundred videos exist on Dr. Johnson's site of people with credentials claiming their healing experiences which they claim came from these beings. People from all walks of life tell their account. Did they all drink the Kool-Aid? I think not. I reason that those who believe that God (as they understand Him), would only create intelligent life on one planet are either grossly narcissistic or reluctant to face different theories out of "self-preservation" or fear. Either one is reasonable when our government has gone through extensive and expensive attempts at refuting any beliefs in extraterrestrials or their flying craft.

My experiences with these "creatures" left me with a less than appreciative view because of "pranks" attributed to some juvenile offspring from these beings having "fun" with me. But that does not refute the positive side attributed from hundreds of people mentioned in these two books. So believe what you will, but information is available which will help you decide.

[SacandagaSchout]

So my grandfather, who came to this country around 1900, would tell tales of beliefs of wolves/werewolves, vampires and other creatures from his village. His homeland was in southeastern Poland, on the edge of the Carpathian Mountains, just a short skip from famed Transylvania. My older brother visited the area many years ago and heard similar stories from existing relatives he found. The stories told were part of the culture that everyone believed. Some stories were frightening and ghastly, but have rational explanations if true facts were known.

This is the position of much of the "skeptic" community, that bigfoot and UFO sightings can be attributed to misidentifications and overactive imaginations. Carl Sagan's book "The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark" makes the case that all of this old folklore grew out of ignorance of of the natural world, and that since we have developed science and have come to much greater understandings of natural phenomena, we have no use for superstition.

The problem is, science seems not to have banished supernatural experiences to the dustbins of history, but converted them into space-age mythologies, in which people report seeing flying saucers and alien visitors from other planets. So people have these strange experiences they can't explain, and these experiences almost exactly track the old fairy lore, and superstition around the globe in every culture, as discussed in the groundbreaking 1969 book "Passport to Magonia" by astronomer and computer scientist Jacques Vallee. As just one example among many, the fairy lore is replete with examples of fairies kidnapping humans and attempting to interbreed with them, which almost exactly tracks modern UFO abduction accounts. (And, if you want to get truly strange, the story of the Immaculate Conception tracks UFO and fairy lore--a strange being from another world, the angel Gabriel, appears in the bedroom of a woman--apparently frightening her--and tells her she has been impregnated by a divine being and will give birth to a half-man, half-god...).

So, it may be that humans are predisposed to mass psychosis or figments of the collective unconscious that have consistent themes, which is Carl Jung's position in a nutshell, or misinterpretation of natural phenomena. The problem with this, however, is that the reports of apparently supernatural occurrences are too widespread, too consistent among multiple witnesses with no apparent connection, often viewed by multiple witnesses, and in many cases bigfoot and UFOs apparently leave physical traces.

This is basically the conclusion of J. Allen Hynek, the astronomer hired by the U.S. Air Force in the 1940s, 50s, and 60s, to debunk UFOs. Hynek started out as a hardcore skeptic, and believed he would be able to explain all sightings as misidentifications of conventional phenomena. He eventually found that something like 10% of sightings were truly unexplainable and represented genuine mysteries. He joined Jacques Vallee in advancing the theory that UFOs were likely not extraterrestrials, but likely are some kind of psychic, otherworldly phenomenon with parallels to the fairy faith.

Skeptics are vehement that there is nothing to this, but I have found that most haven't engaged with the literature put out over the last 80 years from some seriously brilliant scientists and thinkers.

P.S. to tie this back to bigfoot sightings, so as not to go too far off topic with a discussion of UFOs: Hynek, Vallee, and Jung's approaches to UFO sightings, studying them with a comparative folklore lense, has been applied to the study of bigfoot first by John Keel in the 60s and 70s, and more recently in "Where the Footprints End" by Joshua Cutchin and Timothy Renner, and they have found that they likely different flavors of the same phenomenon.

[Wldrns]

you obviously do not belive the last line in my post above:"Some stories were frightening and ghastly, but have rational explanations if true facts were known."

At the risk of serious thread drift (as if it has not already occurred), the people of my grandfather's village did believe in vampires and they had "proof" that some suspect people were indeed vanpires. All they had to do was exhume a suspect who was too hastily buried (sometimes mistakenly while still alive), open the rough wood cassket to see the evidence of frantically scratched intereior and bloody fluids. Just one of these was all the proof they needed to find evidence of anyone and everyone else. Few residents had firearms, so when my brother while visiting almost 50 years ago noted a wooden club and wood spike by the door of each residence he knew why. Outer doors were fearfully left open because the oook stove created so much heat. When I visited the same village in 2016, I saw no such evidence of current belief, but I was not there long enough to get deep into any such conversation.

the rational modern day explanation can be found if you read (and believe the facts of researched science) here:

https://www.howitworksdaily.com/debunking-the-vampire-myth/

[SacandagaSchout]

It is not a matter of belief for me. It is a matter of studied opinion. I just gave a rather lengthy explanation of the arguments for and against a supernatural interpretation, with lots of citations. I have read widely on both sides of the debate. Like I said, I tend to agree with some of the distinguished thinkers I mentioned above, that not all superstitions have conventional explanations. That is a very interesting article about non-supernatural explanations for vampire folklore from "howitworks.com." Thank you for the reference.

To the extent that this thread has drifted, I would summarize my posts above with this caution: we (on Adkforum, and society generally) should not so reflexively dismiss peoples' accounts as impossible, their observations mistaken.

So to get things back on track, I would second Buckladd's question--Lowjack, I am curious where this occurred, if you could give us an approximation without spot-burning.

[Schultzz]

"Beyond that, we've been facing an energy crisis for almost 50 years now, to which we have absolutely no viable options to sustain. Is "bigfoot" going to fix this for us?"

Why should a being with superior faculties feel a need to help us at all especially if his kind were here long before us? A sentient being which incidentally DOES have a mission to be of help to us. But this "creature" has its own family and mate, and has been living here on earth peacefully for thousands of years. Just because you do not believe it exists because you haven't "seen" it does not mean that it doesn't exist. I have encountered this being as have others. I don't mean I saw it briefly. I have had experiences where I have actually interacted with them. The US and other governments are aware of these creatures and have had treaties with aliens for a long time. Eisenhower inherited the knowledge from Truman and actually established the first treaty with these aliens. If you still believe that they don't exist then possibly you still believe in Santa Claus.

[Schultzz]

The Xanue have nothing to do with UFO's. The Treykon DO have a relationship with aliens and UFO's. The Treykon are a nasty species and live in very remote areas.

The Xanue are greater in numbers than we humans. They get their sustinence from trees and stay inside the tree most of the day and come out at night. They vibrate at a greater frequency than we humans and have to slow down their system to be visible to us however most digital cameras can pick up their energy signature. I have been studying these beings for years and have communicated with a federal agency which shall remain nameless for now. There is so much to tell of these beings not only from my experiences but from others' history with them. I am NOT making this up. I am NOT delusional and lead a fairly normal life albeit those who may now be questioning that. More later.

They migrate this time of the year to warmer climes but some stay year round. They are family oriented and raise their families similar to us. O

[montcalm]

Schultzz - I don't make the rules of the universe or know even but a fraction of what they are, but those that I accept are pretty limited, and hard fought concepts. And even those are tenuous, at times. Chaos makes you question everything calculated from a reductionist approach, most of all, your observations.

The long and the short of it is, and the whole point of my post there, was from my limited view there are bigger questions on my mind.

PS I actually know a fair deal of references cited here, as I'm not completely oblivious to the whole thing. The little I've seen, even from the most credible doesn't do much for me. Not enough to really dig deeper. If, one day, it's shown and it slaps me in the face, I'll accept it, but until then, I find it distracting - in which case I'm going to forgo the rest of this - but if it interests you, go on... I was only attempting to refocus a lens.

[Schultzz]

I respect your reply and thank you for it. It was not my intention to slam you. I have respected you since I joined.