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Once upon a cougar in the Adirondacks.
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omitted the Yellowstone/Idaho "Wolf" reintroduction...good source of info into the politics and procedures and associated hoopla of gaining a new fluffy forest critter
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Impacts
Hey all,
This is my first post so i guess it looks like I'll be baptized with fireI grew up in between Ticonderoga and Whitehall (Dresden)...I worked for the DEC many summers in the Lake George and Pharaoh Lakes areas. I've spent my life hunting fishing, hiking, trapping, paddling etc, and now work as a Law Enforcement Ranger in Yellowstone.
Back on topic...I'm not claiming to be an expert, just another person with time in the backcountry. I firmly beleive that the ADKs get some transient or dispersed cougars roaming through. Having a few resident kitty's is not out of the realm of possibility I just don't believe Northern NY has a big enough deer heard to sustain a population of cats.
That being said, cats thrive in the fringe areas around many California cities so maybe we'll just have to wait and see!
I will never believe that the DEC is "secretly releasing cats" or failing to deal with them...That is gross negligence and opening up severe legal issues from every angle.
As far as what would happen if NY did gain a viable cougar population well, I would suggest reading into the 1995 Yellowstone/Idaho reintroduction, that was a serious can of worms still loved and contested to this day...I know if NY gains a population then preservative measures would be introduced such as logging/developmental restrictions in viable habitat areas but in all truth that is the only hindrance I can think of. There's my 2 cents!
Stay safe out there!!
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Originally posted by Pumpkin QAAD View PostWhat was the name of the tribe that occupied that area prior to the Sioux arrival in the late 1700's ?
The Lakota (Sioux) were actually displaced from the area of the Ohio Valley by the members of the Iroquois Confederation and later from the midwest by the Ojibwa or Chippiwa. They migrated just West of the Missouri River and broke up into 3 bands, the Lakota, Nankota and Dakota. That was all before the coming of the horse to the Great Plains.Last edited by redhawk; 12-16-2011, 06:06 PM.
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What was the name of the tribe that occupied that area prior to the Sioux arrival in the late 1700's ?
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Call it Black Elk Peak then because he stood at the top of it before Custer ever did. In fact in the Book "Black Elk Speaks" he states the following about standing at the top of the mountain where he had his vision.
“I was standing on the highest mountain of them all, and round about beneath me was the whole hoop of the world, And while I stood there I saw more than I can tell and I understood more than I saw; for I was seeing in a sacred manner the shapes of all things in the spirit, and the shape of all shapes as they must live together like one being.”
Or call it by it's Lakota name "Hinhan Kaga Paha" for it is to us a sacred place.
Incidently, Black Elk was nine years old when he ascended the mountain and had his Vision. Custer rode his horse up as far as he could go, The first WHITE person credited with ascending Harney Peak was Valentine McGillicuddy on July 24, 1975.
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Harney only won a battle he didn't climb it like Custer
I also spent quite a bit of time in the Black Hills. Both places are very remote but the Black Hills seemed to have a more abundant and larger body size deer population.
I don't have the stats on it but when I saw my first mule deer I was quite impressed.
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Originally posted by Pumpkin QAAD View PostThat's exactly my point Hawk, where you have concentrated tourism in the Black Hills around Rushmore and Custer's Peak, Adirondack tourism is much different and spread out. The facts show the Adirondacks receive more tourists per year but yet, as you note, Custer's Peak gets more Tourists per day than a very popular hiking destination the ADK High Peaks region.
Besides the high peaks don't have a very high deer population density. Good luck keeping a smart cat in that area. Then you are going to run into the farmers defending their cows issue so it cannot be illegal to shoot them. Or have some sort of compensation fund setup.
In most other ways, the Black hills and the Adirondacks are different as far as the type of forest, etc but both areas would support Cougars. My main point in bringing up the Black Hills is because of the Cat to human ratio and the fact that in spite of that, there are no incidents of consequence.
As a person who has hiked extensively in both areas my opinion (and it's just an opinion) is that the Adirondacks has more remote, less populous area then the Black Hills. Oddly enough, even though South Dakota is much more sparsely populated then NY, about 60% of that population is located in Rapid City and the towns located within the Black Hills.
Hmm "more sparsely" is that an Oxymoron or what?Now we see why I'm not a writer!!
BTW It's HARNEY Peak, Custer doesn't have one, he has a park.Last edited by redhawk; 12-16-2011, 06:04 PM.
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That's exactly my point Hawk, where you have concentrated tourism in the Black Hills around Rushmore and Custer's Peak, Adirondack tourism is much different and spread out. The facts show the Adirondacks receive more tourists per year but yet, as you note, Custer's Peak gets more Tourists per day than a very popular hiking destination the ADK High Peaks region.
Besides the high peaks don't have a very high deer population density. Good luck keeping a smart cat in that area. Then you are going to run into the farmers defending their cows issue so it cannot be illegal to shoot them. Or have some sort of compensation fund setup.Last edited by Pumpkin QAAD; 12-16-2011, 09:58 AM.
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Originally posted by Pumpkin QAAD View PostI wouldn't exactly say nothing is done to address the dangers of hunting there are quite a few regs.
I think we should skip the cougar and moose and bring back the mastodon and sabre tooth tigers that our ancestors extirpated. There are no recorded saber tooth attacks on man.
We can't just pick a snapshot in time and say that is how it is supposed to be. Things have changed and unfortunately, while that habitat may support it, society isn't ready to deal with the issues a large population of big cats in the middle of a very popular tourism area would bring.
Oh smilodon why did they kill you off.......
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I wouldn't exactly say nothing is done to address the dangers of hunting there are quite a few regs.
I think we should skip the cougar and moose and bring back the mastodon and sabre tooth tigers that our ancestors extirpated. There are no recorded saber tooth attacks on man.
We can't just pick a snapshot in time and say that is how it is supposed to be. Things have changed and unfortunately, while that habitat may support it, society isn't ready to deal with the issues a large population of big cats in the middle of a very popular tourism area would bring.
Oh smilodon why did they kill you off.......
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[QUOTE=Pumpkin QAAD;179307]They hunt them in the Black Hills and there is very little instance of conflict. I read a really interesting piece regarding the subject, perhaps the confines of the island have forced the cougars to adapt in terms of the human conflict.
Maybe like a Tsavo lion deal whatever they normally eat is gone.
The ratio thing is interesting because if you look at it based on human density california is low but if you look at it in terms of cougar density california is higher than other places, like the Black Hills.[/QUOTE]
Right. the Black hills are a bit of an anomaly because they are an island of forest and mountains surrounded by plains which is not cougar habitat. Add to that the fact that the Black hills are a popular tourism spot, in fact the most popular in SD, and that the Black Hills are a much more compact area then say Yellowstone (Wyoming.Montana) or Glacier national park (Montana) there are more cougars and humans in limited space.
The hunting of cougars there is based on the numbers rising as well as the lobbying of the hunting interests as opposed to any proven threat.
I'm not saying that the hunting is wrong, only that proven threat to humans is not the reason.
Having said all this I will also ask many of you to remember that I have posted on being "stalked" by a Cougar in South Dakota. At least he was following me stealthily. By making myself "BIG" and yielding a fallen tree branch, charging in his direction and making a lot of noise discouraged him. So he certainly was not fixated on having me for dinner. Education of the habitat and the mannerisms and behavior of predators and the best way to avoid and/or deal with them is the most important factor in avoiding confrontations with any animal.
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Originally posted by Gman View PostI know the Black Hills are located in western South Dakota. Please re-read my message. Since a cougar does not know where the Black Hills or Adirondack Mts. begin and end you have to look at the greater region. In this case Western North Dakota, Eastern Wyoming, Montana and even Northwest Nebraska.
Population densities might matter if you could keep the cougars confined to the Adirondacks but you can't.
What I am talking about and the only real point that I am trying to make is that with that high density there are very few sightings by humans, forget about "incidents". So my point is that there is no reason to believe that if there were Cougars in the Adirondack that they would be a big threat to humans.
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Originally posted by Pumpkin QAAD View PostThat's an interesting way to keep things in perspective. There are 700,000 hunters in New York State alone, how many fatalities? Of those fatalities how many were people not participating in the act of hunting such as mountain biking or hiking? People practicing unsafe hunting practices and causing accidents are generally viewed differently in the public than someone getting killed by a wild animal. At least I do.
Using your twisted way of keeping things in perspective, if cougar populations mimic'd hunter populations there would be close to 1,000 human fatalities in New York State alone every year. Do you see how doing that in reverse doesn't make sense? Of course things that are more common lead to more instances of occurence, that's not keeping things in perspective that's called manipulation.
Here are the Adirondack facts, I'm sure things have changed since you were a boy but I would love to see your "facts" about the high density human population of southern South Dakota and surrounding area.
7-10 Million people visit the Adirondacks every year
130,000 year round residents and 200,000 seasonal.
60 Million people live within a days drive of the Adirondacks.
On the flip side, just for arguments sake, since the solution to the predators when they seem to be getting too large in numbers (or prey for that matter) is to "cull" the population, then if other species, humans for instance are engaged in activities in such numbers that a lot of fatalities occur, then should the hunting be curtailed in some way?
You see where I am going with this? "Logic" gets implied in one case to justify human behavior, but on the other hand the logic doesn't apply when it is the humans who are he cause.
So, we should not have apex predators because they might cause a human fatality. BUT nothing needs to be done when humans are causing a lot of fatalities.
HMMM.
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They hunt them in the Black Hills and there is very little instance of conflict. I read a really interesting piece regarding the subject, perhaps the confines of the island have forced the cougars to adapt in terms of the human conflict.
Maybe like a Tsavo lion deal whatever they normally eat is gone.
The ratio thing is interesting because if you look at it based on human density california is low but if you look at it in terms of cougar density california is higher than other places, like the Black Hills.
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Originally posted by Gman View PostPopulation densities might matter if you could keep the cougars confined to the Adirondacks but you can't.
Density doesn't equate to conflicts; hunting pressure and poor management does. Read Mattson et als report. Vancouver Island has by far the highest incidence of conflicts, where the hunting pressure has pounded the cats for decades.
Cougars could make it in Westchester.Last edited by gulo; 12-15-2011, 03:33 PM.
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