GPS. Unsportsmanlike?

[redhawk]

I have witnessed this, including with otherwise experienced backcountry woodsmen friends of mine infatuated with the new technology in their hand... until I pointed out what they were doing. This is part of my point... to go into the woods is to experience and be a part of what nature has to offer, to pay attention to what the woods teaches us by observing the terrain, being one with the terrain, not to ignore it. Why else to go to the hills and trees?

Are they walking with their nose buried in the gps?

I would say that I refer to my gps less then once per hour and without having to take time to get a bearing and locate my position on a map and then plot a course, I actually have MORE time to take in my surroundins, not less!!

[Cahill]

Yeah, they are walking with their nose buried in the gps like they're watching a movie...
They must go through ALOT of batteries!

[Mavs00]

I would say that I refer to my gps less then once per hour and without having to take time to get a bearing and locate my position on a map and then plot a course, I actually have MORE time to take in my surroundins, not less!!

Agree 100%

Besides, I'm real careful in deciphering how one should choose to interact with THIER natural surroundings. I feel my GPS, by enhancing my existing skills, has facilitated my ability to interact with nature, not hampered it. I've been to some pretty cool places and the GPS has helped allow me to safely interact (or avoid) terrain that might otherwise bog me down.

I'd challenge any of you to walk in the trailess woods with me to determine if I interact with my surroundings in acceptable ways. My GPS doesn't take anything away from that, not the way I use it anyway. You might be suprised by how unobtrusive it may me.

[Wldrns]

Are they walking with their nose buried in the gps?

Actually, yes. Maybe it was the "new toy" factor at the time, but that's what I have seen, more than once. In one case it was an experienced map and compass instructor, admittedly a sucker for gadgets. When he realized what he was missing and not being any more accurate than I, he put the gps away and never looked at it again.

I would say that I refer to my gps less then once per hour and without having to take time to get a bearing and locate my position on a map and then plot a course, I actually have MORE time to take in my surroundins, not less!!

Then you must be using some form of terrain observation techniques as, or with, a notion of map and compass between those hour+ gps checks to maintain course and position. That's exactly the way to do it. In most cases (at least in the Adirondacks) you should be able to fix your position based on terrain observations alone at least a couple of times in an hour, if not continuously. If you want to use a gps infrequently as a further confidence builder, then by all means do so.

Taking bearings and course plotting is best when first done at home during map study, in itself a pleasant activity. Having done so, plotting a course is not a time consuming or distractive field activity, as might be imagined hunched over a map on the ground. With terrain observation, a brief glance at the map for reference and the compass to verify general orientation is a check done on the fly as you walk and observe all of nature's many navigation clues. If necessary, plotting a line of position on a map prepared with declination correctioin takes a few seconds without even breaking pace. The idea of navigation by terrain observation is to anticipate and watch for each clue as it comes into view. To do that you must continuously take in your surroundings by eye and mind. See Neil's referenced sticky for more information.

[Wildernessphoto]

Actually, yes. Maybe it was the "new toy" factor at the time, but that's what I have seen, more than once. In one case it was an experienced map and compass instructor, admittedly a sucker for gadgets. When he realized what he was missing and not being any more accurate than I, he put the gps away and never looked at it again.

Then you must be using some form of terrain observation techniques as, or with, a notion of map and compass between those hour+ gps checks to maintain course and position. That's exactly the way to do it. In most cases (at least in the Adirondacks) you should be able to fix your position based on terrain observations alone at least a couple of times in an hour, if not continuously. If you want to use a gps infrequently as a further confidence builder, then by all means do so.

Taking bearings and course plotting is best when first done at home during map study, in itself a pleasant activity. Having done so, plotting a course is not a time consuming or distractive field activity, as might be imagined hunched over a map on the ground. With terrain observation, a brief glance at the map for reference and the compass to verify general orientation is a check done on the fly as you walk and observe all of nature's many navigation clues. If necessary, plotting a line of position on a map prepared with declination correctioin takes a few seconds without even breaking pace. The idea of navigation by terrain observation is to anticipate and watch for each clue as it comes into view. To do that you must continuously take in your surroundings by eye and mind. See Neil's referenced sticky for more information.

I was in a new area tonight, and was hiking on old logging roads that cris-crossed all over. I was just following the roads wherever they took me. I had my Rino hanging on my pack strap with tracking on. and after a couple hours, I decided to find the trail to get out. All I needed to do was pull up the map on my GPS, zoom out till I saw the trail on the map, and bushwhack about 20 min. till I hit it. after wondering all over on the logging roads if I had a M&C, it would have been a guess, at best, to find the trail. With the GPS I knew right where I was in the woods, and where the trail was in relation to my location. That's one instance where I find a GPS with mapping invaluable.
When I'm walking a bearing in a given direction, I hang my compass around my neck, and check it often, and stay on that bearing till I reach my destination.
What I'm saying is both are equally important, and what I use is directly tied to what I'm doing.
-Gary-

[Wldrns]

I was in a new area tonight, and was hiking on old logging roads that cris-crossed all over. I was just following the roads wherever they took me. I had my Rino hanging on my pack strap with tracking on. and after a couple hours, I decided to find the trail to get out. All I needed to do was pull up the map on my GPS, zoom out till I saw the trail on the map, and bushwhack about 20 min. till I hit it. after wondering all over on the logging roads if I had a M&C, it would have been a guess, at best, to find the trail. With the GPS I knew right where I was in the woods, and where the trail was in relation to my location. That's one instance where I find a GPS with mapping invaluable.
When I'm walking a bearing in a given direction, I hang my compass around my neck, and check it often, and stay on that bearing till I reach my destination.
What I'm saying is both are equally important, and what I use is directly tied to what I'm doing.
-Gary-

Agreed. But you were exploring a maze of confusing trails, not navigating point to point. That is not the normal mode of people hiking the backcountry. You were using the gps perfectly well as a tool to in effect map unknown trails. GPS is a good tool for accomplishing a job when you don't need to know or care what is between you and the end. Neil's sticky article does address the confusion of following logging roads or unknown trails with M&C.

However I'm concerned a little by saying that without the gps, finding your way out with M&C would be a guess at best. If true and if you were truly in a wild setting then you've set yourself up to potential trouble with a single point of failure without a backup.

[Wildernessphoto]

Agreed. But you were exploring a maze of confusing trails, not navigating point to point. That is not the normal mode of people hiking the backcountry. You were using the gps perfectly well as a tool to in effect map unknown trails. GPS is a good tool for accomplishing a job when you don't need to know or care what is between you and the end. Neil's sticky article does address the confusion of following logging roads or unknown trails with M&C.

However I'm concerned a little by saying that without the gps, finding your way out with M&C would be a guess at best. If true and if you were truly in a wild setting then you've set yourself up to potential trouble with a single point of failure without a backup.

Point well taken...I wouldn't put myself in that situation unless I had the ability to get out. The GPS as a tool let's me wander, and still get out without a problem. A M&C doesn't give me that luxury. My point is that you use different tools to do different things. Both tools work well, and give you options you don't have otherwise.

[Neil]

I always feel like I'm cheating when I use my GPS.

I just don't think there is cheating in hiking--who cares how you get where you want to go

He means that he feels he is cheating himself, cheating himself out of personal fullfilment by taking the soft option.

That's one instance where I find a GPS with mapping invaluable.

Following man-made features leads me to forget about terrain features and in a situation like that you can't beat a gps with a stick.

Also, when I came out of hiking McKenzie and Moose I was real glad to have my car waypointed because from the new subdivision to my vehicle I didn't have a clue which way to turn.

One thing, I have never had a gps fail or heard of one failing. Anyone else?

[redhawk]

GPS is a good tool for accomplishing a job when you don't need to know or care what is between you and the end. Neil's sticky article does address the confusion of following logging roads or unknown trails with M&C.

Actually with my gps I can tell you exactly what is between me and the end. I can also tell exactly where I am in relation to where I want to get to. Not as easily done with a map and compass no matter how expert you are

However I'm concerned a little by saying that without the gps, finding your way out with M&C would be a guess at best. If true and if you were truly in a wild setting then you've set yourself up to potential trouble with a single point of failure without a backup.

That's not what he said. What he said was that it was a lot easier to bushwhack out because he knew exactly where he was and could see exactly where he wanted to get to.

From your remarks i'm wondering if your own experience with a gps is one without the mapping capability. if that were the case, then what you are thinking would make sense. However, with the mapping the usefullness of the gps is multiplied.

Many places in the Dacks, because of the canopy, and the ground cover, it is really impossible to get a bearing on a landmark, especially away from the high peaks. The ability to mark a specific spot if you find something interesting that you want to return to, the ability to have the waypoints entered and be able to tell how far any of them are from you if you have saved tracks from prior hikes or that someone else has given you.

[Mavs00]

One thing, I have never had a gps fail or heard of one failing. Anyone else?

Yes, Last year I was bushwhacking Cellar (Moose River Plains) and my GPS screen totally failed (i.e. went total blanko) as I was headed up. It's a short b-whack 1.5 miles total the way I went. I peaked out following the law of up and using ObNav and terrain recognition (from stuff I just passed), I was able to head down and walked out of the woods onto the logging road about 15-20 from where I was parked.

I recall taking a quick general reading from my compass back the direction I came after the initial failure, but thats it. I felt VERY comfortable, in this instance, using terrain recognition and didn't even consult the map or compass after the initial time. Granted, open woods in a hemmed in locale, but still. the point is, I did not skip a beat losing the unit. Turn out is was a power supply issue that was easily fixed and the unit worked fine after that.

Also, Not me, but Bushwhacker's (from my forum) GPS failed twice last year (Little Santanoni, Hoffman + Blue Ridge) in heavy rains. Mine (initially a back-up unit) was used for the rest of the hike on Little Sant and they went to traditional methods for Hoff/BR. No sweat on either occasion. since back-up systems were in place adn used.

GPS units can and will on rare occasion, fail. For me, that Cellar trip represented one failure (on an older unit) in about 5 years of using a handheld device. If you assume it can happen, you'll be prepared if it does.

[Wildernessphoto]

Many places in the Dacks, because of the canopy, and the ground cover, it is really impossible to get a bearing on a landmark, especially away from the high peaks.

Another time that I found it impossible to get a bearing, and navigate by compass is on theRaquette River below the falls. the river wonders all over the place, and to try and use a compass to find your location is pretty much impossible, but if you pull up your map on your GPS it shows you your exact location

[Wldrns]

From your remarks i'm wondering if your own experience with a gps is one without the mapping capability. if that were the case, then what you are thinking would make sense. However, with the mapping the usefullness of the gps is multiplied.

Yes, that has been my experience. I have a gps tucked away in my SAR ready-bag that I use during SAR missions to coordinate with Rangers, definitely a useful tool in that case. Many other times when I've played with it on my own it just doesn't do much for enhancing my love of traveling through the woods. In fact I dislike the temptation to turn it it when with just a little more thought and observation I could figure out or confirm what I needed to know anyway.

Many places in the Dacks, because of the canopy, and the ground cover, it is really impossible to get a bearing on a landmark, especially away from the high peaks. The ability to mark a specific spot if you find something interesting that you want to return to, the ability to have the waypoints entered and be able to tell how far any of them are from you if you have saved tracks from prior hikes or that someone else has given you.

How well I know this. I am not a peakbagger by any means, I spend most of my time in the canopy covered western 'Daks. Getting a bearing on a distant landmark is a rarity. But there are plenty of ravines and ridges and streams that serve perfectly well to provide navigation clues, along with dead reckoning, and soon enough I will come to a break in a ridge, or a bend in a stream along with other nearby visible clues to fix my position - it's called navigation by terrain observation. I can think of very few times when in the middle of flat terraiin with nothing visible that I would need to fix my position precisely to within feet. When my exact location matters that much, I just look down to see if I am standing on a shoreline or overlooking a cliff or something else obvious. If I do need to mark a totally indistinct spot, then I'm probably on a SAR mission carrying a gps in coordination with a DEC search crew, not on a recreational hike.

[dog]

brain & soul

What is more personal , than feelings ?

There is no way back to a purity . If I would go in woods naked , only looking at Sun and Polar Star , I used a knowledge - a product of civilization .
And all artificial things are materialized knowledge - nowhere to go . Just a choice of a degree of using .
On the other hand GPS is not ATV . Despite Earth in radiodiapason looks like a star .
I've never had or used GPS . Vehicles , I work on , have . Looking at 40728750 & , I remind very known hiking stories and missions . Would be happy to use it , even without 3 last digits and applications . To turn it off is not forbidden .

I'm still exploring articles from Nessmuk and Mavs00 and downloaded them .

I forgot : that weather channels , what go with GPS - it's priceless too !

[fisher39]

I have found GPS most valuable when getting out of dense-as-hell areas such as heavy blowdown, spruce swamps and logged areas. If you haven't experienced the joy of trying to get through ten-year old blowdown, you should seek it out to see what you are made of - you have full trees flat on their sides, often 5-8 feet off the ground, with saplings growing up through them. Covering a distance that would take half an hour in mature, undisturbed forest can take half a day in blowdown, and just 20 feet in a different direction can make all the difference. I know for a fact that I have been in places where, if I had to use a map and compass, I would have spent the night in the woods. With the GPS mapping and tracking feature I can keep tabs on how long a given route takes me, and follow it back.

But as has been noted before, GPSs can crap out often for a variety of reasons (heavy canopy - such as when crawling through a spruce thicket, bad weather, batteries) and I have temporarily "misplaced" mine in the middle of the woods in the past. There is a reason why every time I fire up my GPS I have to get through a screen that says it is for "recreational use only" and that the manufacturer will not be liable for any problems caused by the device's failure. For this reason a user absolutely has to have a map and compass on hand, and know how to use them.

[redhawk]

I have found GPS most valuable when getting out of dense-as-hell areas such as heavy blowdown, spruce swamps and logged areas. If you haven't experienced the joy of trying to get through ten-year old blowdown, you should seek it out to see what you are made of - you have full trees flat on their sides, often 5-8 feet off the ground, with saplings growing up through them. Covering a distance that would take half an hour in mature, undisturbed forest can take half a day in blowdown, and just 20 feet in a different direction can make all the difference. I know for a fact that I have been in places where, if I had to use a map and compass, I would have spent the night in the woods. With the GPS mapping and tracking feature I can keep tabs on how long a given route takes me, and follow it back.

But as has been noted before, GPSs can crap out often for a variety of reasons (heavy canopy - such as when crawling through a spruce thicket, bad weather, batteries) and I have temporarily "misplaced" mine in the middle of the woods in the past. There is a reason why every time I fire up my GPS I have to get through a screen that says it is for "recreational use only" and that the manufacturer will not be liable for any problems caused by the device's failure. For this reason a user absolutely has to have a map and compass on hand, and know how to use them.

I agree 100% with always carrying a map and compass.

However, I have never had a gps problem, even under the canopy. AND I always carry enough batteries.