Bomb proof Rain Gear

[Schultzz]

Set up a phony company that does "testing" Send a request to all the manufacturers of breathable waterproof clothing. Tell them you're from the ADK Forum Outfitter Testing Society and that you need at least two pairs of everything they make in your size. Send them a glorious report telling them their product is the best. Send this to every company. Wear their stuff till it doesn't repel anymore and try another. They will keep sending you their stuff to test. If that doesn't work then stay home on rainy days.

[randomscooter]

Sure wish I'd educated myself before buying the Mammut jacket. I think I would have looked for something non-breathable with pit zips for ventilation.

When the DWR on the Mammut wears out then the Mammut will be a non-breathable jacket with pit zips for ventilation. Until then, enjoy whatever breathability it offers.

PS: I only go fishing on nice days.

[vtflyfish]

The Continuing Saga of Trying to Stay Dry

Jacket # 2 went back to Mountain Hardwear with a description of my experience with the jacket and full disclosure on the return history. On their website they said to expect an answer back within 8 weeks.

One week later I got a call from one of their representatives. His response: "You're right, the thing does wet out and water collected on the inside when we tested it. We're going to send you a new jacket." So Mountain Hardwear is at the top of the heap as far as integrity, honesty and product support are concerned.

The new jacket arrived last week and is a step up (they must want to be rid of me badly). It is 2.5 layer construction with their proprietary breathable membrane and it has pit zips. The model is Ozonic for those interested. We'll see how this one works out. If it fails after a year I won't send it back, figuring I've exercised Mountain Hardwear enough and they've acted honorably.

In the meantime (remember I was expecting an 8 week delay) I found a great deal on a Mammut Segnas 3 layer Gore-Tex shell. It gets great reviews and I got in for a fraction of the full retail price. So between the two jackets I should be dry for a while but am under no illusions that I'll stay dry forever(maybe I should wear one jacket under the other...).

I've also read a number of technical papers on DWR finishes. Nasty stuff and, because it degrades into long lasting fluorinated hydrocarbons it is being regulated out of existence. And the reason it lasts longer on the new garment is that they can vacuum deposit the stuff on the fabric, something we can't do at home with aftermarket sprays or wash-in products.

My take from reading the literature is that DWR is a bit of a sham.

First, you need it to keep the waterproof membrane working. When the face fabric wets out no bratheable membrane does so and you start to get wet from the inside.
Second, DWR by its nature has a limited lifetime on any fabric. To me, you have every right to send any jacket back that has a waterproofness guarantee once it starts to wet out because you need both the breathable membrane and DWR working to keep you dry.
Third, DWR longevity depends highly on the face fabric used. Since there's a profusion of fabrics in the marketplace, it's almost impossible to tell whether your new, expensive shell is going to go the distance or not. Product reviews aren't going to tell you because they don't use those products long enough.

Sure wish I'd educated myself before buying the Mammut jacket. I think I would have looked for something non-breathable with pit zips for ventilation.

[randomscooter]

I agree but the scam is selling us rain jackets that are guaranteed waterproof and breathable. It seems like every company makes something that works when new. There is NO aftermarket DWR treatment that lasts the duration of a wet week in the woods IMHO.

I feel your pain. I rarely (heck, never) spend a week in the woods. At least nowadays. Mostly day trips, so my gear doesn't get put to the same level of testing as yours.

While educating myself about Dry.Q EVAP I stumbled into another technological innovation called Q.Shield. Go to THIS page, scroll down to Q.Shield, and watch the video and read the tech sheet. Supposedly lasts for the life of the garment. But they seem to only use it on insulated garments, gloves, etc. Why not rain jackets?

[vtflyfish]

... the outer fabric had wetted out and you were feeling your own sweat. In general it's NOT the waterproof/breathable membrane that's failing; it's the DWR coating on the fabric and/or the manufacturing methods and/or the care (or lack thereof) by the owner.

I agree but the scam is selling us rain jackets that are guaranteed waterproof and breathable. It seems like every company makes something that works when new. There is NO aftermarket DWR treatment that lasts the duration of a wet week in the woods IMHO.

[randomscooter]

Scoot,

What's the difference? If you buy a $200 plus jacket to stay dry both in and out it should do that. I've had the same issues with other brands. Frankly I think most of these breathable fabrics are a scam, but the vinyl coated alternatives are heavy. I've had LL Bean gore tex pants completely soak through in a good rain while hiking. Likewise my wading jacket when fishing. They all suck. So there. I may go back to my $30 old vinyl coated nylon jacket. Its light, and completely waterproof. Not breathable but either is the other stuff when it's wet out.

Again, the best illustration is the waterproof/breathable waders that we all use. Unless they get a hole, they don't leak. And they're a heck of a lot less "humid" than the old fashioned waders. That's the breathability. BUT, the part of the waders that's underwater can't breathe. And THAT is the exact same thing that happens when the DWR wears out causing the outer fabric to wet out. I would bet my last leech that the LL Bean pants of yours that completely soaked through either (1) had holes in them (perhaps untaped seams or side zippers?), or (2) the outer fabric had wetted out and you were feeling your own sweat. In general it's NOT the waterproof/breathable membrane that's failing; it's the DWR coating on the fabric and/or the manufacturing methods and/or the care (or lack thereof) by the owner.

[Glen]

Even in the case of wetting out, the waterproofness of the membrane is not compromised, only the breathability. Are you sure the wetness you are experiencing isn't just sweat? Of course poor breathability is still an issue, but your earlier post indicated that the jacket was "no longer waterproof".

Scoot,

What's the difference? If you buy a $200 plus jacket to stay dry both in and out it should do that. I've had the same issues with other brands. Frankly I think most of these breathable fabrics are a scam, but the vinyl coated alternatives are heavy. I've had LL Bean gore tex pants completely soak through in a good rain while hiking. Likewise my wading jacket when fishing. They all suck. So there. I may go back to my $30 old vinyl coated nylon jacket. Its light, and completely waterproof. Not breathable but either is the other stuff when it's wet out.

[Rusty and the Maniac]

I spent 8 hrs out the other day in my canoe in the pissing, drenching, cold as siberia adk rain. It was about 60, and it was windy. (Caught a ridiculous #%^*load of brookies too, but took no pics). Then my buddy somehow got lost in the woods walking out, so spent another 2 hrs walking around the woods yelling for him (in the rain)... After all that crap, got back to the truck dry. Wore my mtn hardware jacket (dri q elite, best raincoat material ever, it's like event) over a fleece vest and a techwick long sleeve. Wore my stohlquist dry pants that i cut the bottom gaskets out of over some old orvis polyester khakis with rubber kneehigh boots. Warm and dry and waterproof. I love the dryq elite, had it for 2 yrs and an occaisional run through the dryer is all it needs.

[randomscooter]

TekWash folowed by additional rinse cycle. Revive-X DWR applied with a spray bottle. 40 minutes in the dryer per the manufacturuer's instructions. After ~ 1 week of use the arms start to wet out again, indicating that the DWR lacks D and wears away quickly. I think it's the face fabric that's the issue.

Even in the case of wetting out, the waterproofness of the membrane is not compromised, only the breathability. Are you sure the wetness you are experiencing isn't just sweat? Of course poor breathability is still an issue, but your earlier post indicated that the jacket was "no longer waterproof".

[vtflyfish]

Not waterproof or not breathable? When I'm sitting in my float tube my arse feels like it's getting wet. When I get out of the tube my arse still feels wet. But it's just sweat. No way the goretex can breathe when it's submerged. and no way a rain jacket can breathe if the membrane is clogged (for obvious reasons) or if the DWR is worn out (because the jacket will "wet out" instead of beading, which means there is a uniform coat of water covering the membrane, pretty much like being underwater.

Sounds as if the DWR isn't worn out, because you have re-applied it. So, a few questions for you. (1) Do you wash the jacket? If not then the pores will get clogged. (2) Do you wash the jacket with Nikwax TekWash or some other recommended product? If you use regular laundry detergent the pores will get clogged. (3) Do you use a spray on DWR and apply it only to the outside? If you use a wash in DWR or apply a spray on to the inside then the pores will get clogged.

That's all I've got. If it ain't one of the above then it's time to call Mtn Hardwear again.

TekWash folowed by additional rinse cycle. Revive-X DWR applied with a spray bottle. 40 minutes in the dryer per the manufacturuer's instructions. After ~ 1 week of use the arms start to wet out again, indicating that the DWR lacks D and wears away quickly. I think it's the face fabric that's the issue.

[St.Regis]

I have Rivers West jacket and pants. It's waterproof but its also hot. I can't even hunt in it because I sweat so much. If you're sitting or fishing on a cold day it might be ok, but any exertion and I'm drenched.

You're right about hot on the inside, but I've never been wet from the rain and snow. They make lightweight clothing too, and I would guess that it's cooler, but can't say for sure.

[randomscooter]

It's only been a year but my Mountain Hardwear jacket is no longer waterproof. I've reapplied DWR twice now but the stuff wears off and the jacket won't withstand a week's trip where heavy rain is expected. Add another glorified windbreaker to the pile...

Not waterproof or not breathable? When I'm sitting in my float tube my arse feels like it's getting wet. When I get out of the tube my arse still feels wet. But it's just sweat. No way the goretex can breathe when it's submerged. and no way a rain jacket can breathe if the membrane is clogged (for obvious reasons) or if the DWR is worn out (because the jacket will "wet out" instead of beading, which means there is a uniform coat of water covering the membrane, pretty much like being underwater.

Sounds as if the DWR isn't worn out, because you have re-applied it. So, a few questions for you. (1) Do you wash the jacket? If not then the pores will get clogged. (2) Do you wash the jacket with Nikwax TekWash or some other recommended product? If you use regular laundry detergent the pores will get clogged. (3) Do you use a spray on DWR and apply it only to the outside? If you use a wash in DWR or apply a spray on to the inside then the pores will get clogged.

That's all I've got. If it ain't one of the above then it's time to call Mtn Hardwear again.

[Limekiln]

I have Rivers West jacket and pants. It's waterproof but its also hot. I can't even hunt in it because I sweat so much. If you're sitting or fishing on a cold day it might be ok, but any exertion and I'm drenched.

[St.Regis]

Two words - "Rivers West".

[vtflyfish]

It's only been a year but my Mountain Hardwear jacket is no longer waterproof. I've reapplied DWR twice now but the stuff wears off and the jacket won't withstand a week's trip where heavy rain is expected. Add another glorified windbreaker to the pile...