Perfect Example

[redhawk]

For those who think that carrying personal radios when hiking is a waste!!

http://www.mirolka.com/ADKwoods.htm

[Wldrns]

For those who think that carrying personal radios when hiking is a waste!!

http://www.mirolka.com/ADKwoods.htm

Wow, what dangerous thinking this implies -- one thought might be it was a good thing she had a radio, but I am much more concerned that she got into the situation in the first place. I rather think this is not a perfect reason for having a radio, but a perfect chance to look at all the multiple things done wrong way before the radio was ever used.

Let's start with the very first line of the narrative: “I never really thought of what it would be like to be lost...” Not thinking what it would be like to be lost means she started out without a clue of how NOT to get lost. It doesn’t sound like John was of much prior help in making sure she would get back alone safely either. I can only imagine John's fate if he had gotten hurt and had to count on her to go for help.

She admits she was not a climber and she hiked with someone else. Was she paying attention to where they were hiking to, or just tagging along behind like a puppy? Did she stop on the way out to note intersecting trails/tracks, checking the view from the opposite direction? Was there ever any mention of map and compass, even if only to know if traveling north or south? Did she have any idea how long it took to get to the climb from the campsite? Did she have anything as simple as a compass and whistle?

“On the way back, I followed a different trail which was clearer than the one we had...” Well gee, any old trail will do, let’s take the easiest as it will get me back the fastest. Who cares what direction it is going.

“...instead of turning left, I turned right. Since the path of trail was more visible and walked, my mind decided to take it to get back to our camping site faster.” - This is unbelievable.

“I saw a hiker and I said to myself, ‘OK, this is good. I'm taking the right way.’” What does one have to do with the other? Having taken a different trail, did she bother to confirm with the hiker where they were?

“Then, I thought, ‘Wow! I got to our site so fast.’" One of the biggest clues that you are not where you think you are is getting there way ahead of schedule. That just doesn’t happen and usually is a bad sign that you have misinterpreted where you are. Don't rejoice unless you can prove that a miracle has happened. At this point, sit down, think clearly, retrace in your mind where you have been, look for clues, look at the map and compass. Before moving on, make total sense of where you are or don't move at all.

“Our camping site was near Pharaoh Lake which I thought was the one I was at.” Did the shape and size of the lake and the direction of the surrounding high terrain match the map? Oh yeah - map and compass, what's that?

“I ate more ice to avoid being dehydrated. I was really getting tired.” This is a good way to bring on hypothermia, especially when tired. It takes a huge amount of body heat to melt very little ice. Unless you have food and a source of heat, eating ice is likely to do more harm than good. She doesn’t mention if she carried water with her, or had any means of purifying more.

This person had no clue where she was from the time she first left base camp with her husband. She did not pay attention to her hiking trail. She was not prepared to be out there, either from herself or from her husband. Neither considered the consequences of her inexperience. She had no business being out there in the first place, and should never have been left alone. What if she had fallen into the lake, radio and all? No whistle huh.

Having the radio may have saved her, but the whole scenario should have been avoided. In this case a whistle may have been as handy as a radio. The sound carries much farther than voice, you can tell direction from the sound, works indefinitely even when wet, and would be assured of lasting a lot longer than batteries. She could have been very close to John but with only a radio there's no way to tell how far or what direction.

Primary commentary on this story crediting the radio isn’t the right reaction in my opinion. Next thing you know, people will be demanding more cell phone towers in the wilderness so they can be assured of a 4 bar connection when they come to trail intersections they do not recognize. No problem, just dial up a ranger... Oh, hmmmm, that is already happening.

Too many crutches of cell phones, radios and GPS leading people to think they don't have to be otherwise prepared or knowledgeble. Use them, fine, but don't throw out common sense when you buy one and head out into the wilderness.

[redhawk]

I quoted it because in other discussion, people have expressed doubt at the value of carrying a radio.

Mistake or no mistakes, this certainly shows the ignorance of that thinking.

Sure, why no compass? map? GPS? why get separated if it wasn't necessary? whole bunchof examples this could be used for. But the fact is it was having the radio that saved her A$$. That's my point and the sole purpose of this post.

I could go further, if she and her hubby had Rinos, they would have been able to pinpoint each others position. yet people don't seem to see the advantages of the RINO. This points that out to.

[fvrwld]

I'm surprised she could figure out how to use the radio

An example but maybe not the perfect example.

[Wldrns]

I quoted it because in other discussion, people have expressed doubt at the value of carrying a radio.
if she and her hubby had Rinos, they would have been able to pinpoint each others position. yet people don't seem to see the advantages of the RINO. This points that out to.

... and ... if only I had arranged for that helicopter to constantly hover nearby while on my hike, I would never have had to think for myself how or work so hard to get down off that mountain amongst all those confusing trails! Those darn trees and swamps and hills make travel so difficult and confusing.

Not trying to discount the value of any particular navaid, but I see too many cases of false security placed totally on a single item (usually electronic) leading to making very poor decisions in the wilderness.

[paul ron]

And just how does a radio save you when lost???

So you have a radio and can talk to the lost person but how can that get you back to a known trail or even FIND the lost person. All you can do is tell the person on the other end that you are lost. Describing the area you are lost in doesn't help anyone unless you are that familiar with the area.

I think a map would have been a better aid and some pre planning so everyone is familiar with the area in and out.

Cheese, this is all we need... people jaberwalking with lost hikers on their radios, it's not midtown NYC! "hop on the 5 buss honey"

[redhawk]

So you have a radio and can talk to the lost person but how can that get you back to a known trail or even FIND the lost person. All you can do is tell the person on the other end that you are lost. Describing the area you are lost in doesn't help anyone unless you are that familiar with the area.

I think a map would have been a better aid and some pre planning so everyone is familiar with the area in and out.

Cheese, this is all we need... people jaberwalking with lost hikers on their radios, it's not midtown NYC! "hop on the 5 buss honey"

Hmm guess the rangers shouldn't use radios then either, right??

Assume that the person knows the other person, they are in the same general area having hiked in together.

Or to put it so it doesn't require rocket science..

Better a radio then no radio.......

I have used radios for years, hand em out to people who hike with me. I have more hiking time and miles then about any two people here so I know just a little bit about what I'm doing.

On three occasions, they have proved invaluable. Once when my hiking partner went high in the gorge and I went low and we got separated for an hour or so. Twice when people wandered out of camp and it was really overgrown. On all three occasions we managed to somehow find each other.
And if you have a couple people who separate in order to find a trail, one can call the other when its found and if they have a "little' experience they will hook up. If they both have gps's they can relay their co-ordinates.

God forbid I suggest RINO's (which I use now with several experienced hiking buddies, on this forum) which can actually tell the person how far away and what direction the other is as well as the waypoint they are at and in fact I can send the others a waypoint to meet at.

In other words, they are more valuable to experienced people then they are to stupid people.

It's funny, everyone who is in the woods for a lifetime always gets really lost at least once. How deep and for how long is relative to the area and location. The best people I ever learned anything from werte people who had been lost, or who had close calls in the woods.

They are now the smart ones, they carry maps, compasses, Gps's radios and a host of things because they are intelligent and savvy enough to know that every edge helps.

Fall, somewhere off the trail and break a leg, then see if you really think that it's stupid to have a radio with you!! Even if they don't know where you are, they know you're in trouble and it starts the search. DUHHHHHHHH

[Wldrns]

Hmm guess the rangers shouldn't use radios then either, right??

Whoa, I never said a radio shouldn't be carried or used. You missed my point, which was brought about by the tale of the inexperience of the hiker in question. I've never known a ranger who would enter unknown territory without a compass and other gear, radio or not. But a radio is integral and necessary to performance of their job.

Better a radio then no radio.......

This is absolutely true. But let me ask - would someone be criticized for not hiring a trained licensed guide to go with them? Very experienced guides are readily available for hire and would enhance the safety of a wilderness trip. Better a guide than no guide...

What is not better is to go into the woods thinking "I have a radio so I don't need any of that other map and compass stuff or to pay attention to where I am - I'll just call a ranger and get found." You must know there are cases of this kind of thing. Same idea with a GPS. A satellite radio might be even better. But how many people carry one of those? If there was assured cell phone coverage everywhere how many more people would be tempted to go where they otherwise shouldn't because they feel a phone is all they need to be rescued? And then there's the guy last year on the Oswegatchie with the emergency locator beacon. We know what the rangers thought of him after he pressed the button the second time.

I have used radios for years, hand em out to people who hike with me. I have more hiking time and miles then about any two people here so I know just a little bit about what I'm doing.

I respect your many years and miles of hiking experience. Our styles may be different. I travel alone or in very small groups, and tend not to get separated farther than what a very low whistle blow would reunite. I focus on absorbing the fine details of the wilderness terrain and nature about me, and all that I can learn from her.

And if you have a couple people who separate in order to find a trail, one can call the other when its found and if they have a "little' experience they will hook up. If they both have gps's they can relay their co-ordinates.

No argument here, you are using the electronics to perform a specific task planned in advance. As a backup, with your experience, you could also use alternate methods if you needed to do so.

God forbid I suggest RINO's (which I use now with several experienced hiking buddies, on this forum) which can actually tell the person how far away and what direction the other is as well as the waypoint they are at and in fact I can send the others a waypoint to meet at.

That being your mode of experiencing the wilderness is fine. You treat the electronics as a tool to get the job done, not exclusive of your other gained experience. I prefer to let the wilderness guide me instead - which in my case is really why I am there in the first place.

In other words, they are more valuable to experienced people then they are to stupid people.

Amen.

It's funny, everyone who is in the woods for a lifetime always gets really lost at least once. How deep and for how long is relative to the area and location. The best people I ever learned anything from werte people who had been lost, or who had close calls in the woods.

Oh how well I know this lesson. I have learned far more than I can ever tell anyone by pressing my limits, even intentionally going to where I would become "lost", just to gain more experience. GPS and personal radios did not exist back then. I learned to love reading the terrain, and each tiny squiggle of a contour line or acre sized swamp was my friend, giving me a navigation fix. Yes, close calls are the best teacher and I have had my share. I'm more careful with my steps when solo than when with others, having learned from close calls, misteps, and slips of the mind. But that same care in observing and absorbing my surroundings teaches me more about the wilderness than I would have learned by being "less careful" when distracted with other people or using external aids. I remember and savor much more of the otherwise "insignificant events", even individual footsteps, on those trips long after I have returned home.

They are now the smart ones, they carry maps, compasses, Gps's radios and a host of things because they are intelligent and savvy enough to know that every edge helps.

Yup, the smart ones are not dependent on single points of failure. In unfamiliar terrain I carry 2 additional spare small compasses in different pockets, and have studied the map before the trip in enough detail to be able to find my way out without the map should it become lost. I do own a GPS and a cell phone, which on legal advice I will carry when guiding just because you never know when some fool client is going to do something stupid. Even if the cell phone is worthless where we are, the client could still sue, saying I did not take all due care with his safety and rescue. I'll haul out the GPS for training because it is a good tool to do a specific job and people are curious about it, but on my guided trips other than as a curiosity it remains in the pack. People go with me and I train them to learn what the wilderness offers, not the electronics. When I am solo hiking in the wilderness for my own skill building it doesn't even go with me.

Fall, somewhere off the trail and break a leg, then see if you really think that it's stupid to have a radio with you!! Even if they don't know where you are, they know you're in trouble and it starts the search. DUHHHHHHHH

Once again I never said it was stupid to have one with you. I will say however that it is stupid to think it is more important to have a radio than a compass and the knowledge of how to use one.

[redhawk]

I will say however that it is stupid to think it is more important to have a radio than a compass and the knowledge of how to use one.

And if you read through my earlier posts here you will see that I PREACH that under all circumstances to carry a compass(s) and maps and also to be sure to learn how to read them.

I can make every argument you made and agree with all of them. My whole point about radios (if you go back to posts that I made in February or march) is that it's another tool and I also suggested that if one was carrying a radio, to make a notation at the trail register as to what channel you were on so that others with radios could pick a different channel for "chit, chat" and yet know what channel others were on just in case".

I too prefer to let the wilderness "teach me", to the point of spending seven months bushwahcking deep in the Rockies, Teutons, Bitterroots and Sierra Nevada's. How carrying radios. compasses, gps's etc interferes with immersing oneself in the journey is beyond me.

If you really think about it, once you know how to do all the navigating, and are well indoctranated with survival skills, having electronics to depend on instead of having to constantly take and set a bearing and a back bearing and observing your backtrail, the more you can concentrate on and enjoy the surroundings.

And Paul rons post "Cheese, this is all we need... people jaberwalking with lost hikers on their radios, it's not midtown NYC! "hop on the 5 buss honey"12-30-2004 10:22 PM


Go into the peaks and everyone is carrying a cell phone already. And it is practically like being in the city thats another reason i don't spend much time there.. I go off trail, deep in, in areas in the daks that arn't frequented by people. If I'm late coming out, there are people who know what channel to find me on when they start looking. That gibes me a big survival edge right there.