giving advice

[Dick]

I thought I'd throw out a couple of scenarios about problems associated with giving advice on hiking. Please know that I do not have ANYONE on this board in mind.

Scenario 1: Someone with almost no hiking experience comes to a hiking forum, looking for "an easy half-day hike." Mr. Bigshot, a 46er ten times over, who often hikes three peaks before breakfast, who lets everyone know that he has scaled major peaks around the world, hiked the AT and PCT multiple times, etc., suggests that he's hiked mountain 'x' a dozen times, says it's a piece of cake, and that most people do it in a morning, and that "you should have no problem with this one." Other posters chime in to give the questioner a dose of reality -- and perhaps to deflate Mr. Bigshot's swollen ego -- but the questioner has only seen Mr. Bigshot's response, thanks him, signs off, attempts the mountain and subsequently gets into trouble, hurting or injuring either himself or his five-year-old child, who he brought along thinking the mountain would be a good first hike. Even more insidious, there may well be additional lurkers with limited experience and who have never posted, who read only Mr. Bigshot's post and get themselves into trouble.

Scenario 2: You're on the trail and someone comes up to you, obviously exhausted, wearing street shoes, and asks how far it is to the summit. It's only a flat half-mile back to the trailhead and there are eight miles to go to a rugged and tricky summit, but you want to be encouraging, so you tell them "you're making good progress," or "you have a way to go, but it's not that bad" or some other such BS. It may well be that they have no business climbing the mountain in the first place (you don't really know this). Or perhaps you let them have it between the eyes and tell them they're in over their head and that they should turn back? Or perhaps you offer a different answer?

Scenario 3: You're on the trail and you pass someone who looks lost and who says, "Have you seen my wife? She's about 5'5" and is wearing a green jacket." You answer, "Yes, we saw her about ten minutes ago. She was resting on that large rock about a mile back on the trail." Relieved, he goes back to look for her, and you continue your hike out to the car. Back at the car, many miles later, you think to yourself, "Oh, I wonder if he meant that other woman who passed us? I think she was wearing green, too!"

My point with these scenarios, and I'm sure we could invent others, is that giving advice can have unexpected repercussions, and if the advice is bad, it could put people in danger without knowing. Are you SURE of your advice? Is your 'advice' really just an opinion? Did you check the map before suggesting to someone that they made a wrong turn? Maybe you're at the end of your hike, you're tired, you have visions of that beer at the end of the road, and you're not thinking too clearly. What if your advice is not followed to the letter? Did you forget to tell them that there was a stream crossing two miles ahead that was really quite difficult? Is it right to attempt to size up the abilities of others on the trail? Should you give unsolicited advice on the trail? They may not look experienced, but the reality may be they know the trail better than you; or they may be very experienced, but have made an important error in some way; or they may be totally inexperienced and sorely in need of advice, however poorly they may take it.

What about giving advice on the internet? it's easy to get caught up in discussions among those who we know (somewhat!), and in some cases have hiked with. Do we give enough thought to the lurkers out there? Of course, it is an easy thing (a cop out?) to state that the person doing the hiking bears the responsibility, but do we not also bear an important responsibility when a question is asked?

I ask all of these questions because I know that I have probably been guilty of offering incorrect advice on more than one occasion. This continues to haunt me.

[Kevin]

Great points Dick

One thing to note -- sacoo hikes in sneakers, and I am as surprised as anyone that he does so without issue.

I know your scenerio paints a pitcure of a 'newb', but sometimes what works for one may not work for everyone else (and vice versa). I usually like a few leading questions (here's my tech support training/experience coming in handy):

1 -- Do you prefer sneakers? I tried them and slipped a lot.

2 -- There's 8 more miles of trail, were you aware that this hike could take 10 hours or more round trip?

3 -- You look tired, and you haven't started any of the steepest, toughest parts of the hike. Do you think today is the day to take this hike?

(here's the best leading question as it will gauge a persons adirondacks and specifically the high peaks area knowledge)

4 -- How many peaks have you climbed?



If they say 1,2,3, or none to #4, depending on what summit they're trying for, I could very well discourage them and suggest maybe they do some more homework before heading out. Thus far, I've yet to talk to anyone on the trail that 'didn't belong there', but I have SEEN many . Often I will comment about the gear and most experience hikers who look prepared understand and explain that they're only hiking in a few miles and not actually trying for any summits or distance. (this actually happened when I was hiking out from Lake Colden and a group of 2 couples with only water were about 2 miles from the upper works trailhead and I had to ask/comment that they didn't look 'prepared', and their response was [sacastically] "Yeah, we're thinking of doing the Great Range starting with Marcy." )

[Muddler Mike]

I agree - great points, both of you. I guess i try to keep it subjective and let those that I'm giving the advice to know it. Although frequently using factual info, my perception of a trail/peak is just that - my perception or opinion. Sometimes minding your own business is the way to go, but if you've got a big heart and truly care about people and their experiences then you will say something and take your chances. If you're kind about it, give them the benefit of the doubt, and leave your ego in check, your message should be well recieved and accepted by the inexperienced or politely confirmed by the experienced. Worse comes to worse, at least you'll be able to sleep at night knowing you tried to help someone despite their staunch refusal of advice.

I was a somewhat experienced hiker by the time I hiked Algonquin for the second time. My fiancee hurt her knee on the way up, but pushed on to the summit, despite the pain. As we watched the summit steward head down before us, the anxiety started to build. We finished the trail in the dark with a small flashlight, my fiancee hobbling along at a snail's pace. I didn't have anything to start a fire with, to keep us warm with, or to provide shelter with at a time of the year that the night time temps were falling into the 20's. Before that time you couldn't tell me anything - I had been hiking in the A-Dacks since I was 5 yrs old, had been a boyscout for a few years, and had a couple of peaks under my belt, after all! My point is, some lessons are best learned the hard way and you'll find those who seem experienced but haven't been bitten yet. Now, I never hike into the A-Dacks without the essentials - including a tube tent, space blankets, fire starter, first aid, water filter, extra food, etc. The old adage is very true - you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Muddy

[oldsmores]

...Of course, it is an easy thing (a cop out?) to state that the person doing the hiking bears the responsibility, but do we not also bear an important responsibility when a question is asked?...

Dick-
You're questions are thought provoking, but the statement above just drives me nuts. The "cop out" is saying, "well, I read it on the internet" or "that guy on the trail gave me bad advice". One of the things that seems to be rampant in our society is the lack of responsibility for one's own actions. IMHO, the woman that spills hot coffee in her lap should not be allowed to sue the restaurant for making her coffee too hot. Likewise, people who are going to head off to the mountains need to gather information wherever they can, then make their own judgements. I'm reminded of an old Alan Sherman song "Good advice costs nothing, and it's worth the price." I guess we should all ask for a signed waiver before we give someone advice or opinions...
Sorry, you hit on a pet peeve...

[Rick]

Wow!! Great Thread.
Also, Kevin, I need to defend Sacco here (more precisely the wearing of sneakers on the trail, as Sacco can probably easily defend himself)
After years of heavy mountaineering or backpacking boots I bought into the sneaker craze hesitantly with a pair of NB803's. that was I think in '99. I am up to 806's and I love them for everything - the boots usually feel like overkill now. I still have the heavy boots, but they usually stay in the closet..

OK, to Dick's point #1, this is my opinion. (and IMMHO, all I have are opinioins unless you want a free stove). Oldsmore hit the nail squarley on the head. Personal responsibility. Since this is an advice and opinion board, any user coming on here would hopefully use the information here IN CONJUNCTION WITH a trailguide, a map, a weather report and perhaps even a quick call to the local ranger for current trail conditions.

While I sometimes also think about Dick's points #2 &#3, The individual is asking someone to volunteer information. I honestly beleive most try to tailor the info they give to the current state of conditions based on their current assessment of the situation (assuming no malice on the part of a jackass or show off), it is ultimately the responsibility of the individual to drill into reponses in order to garner the best possible conclusions.

I really think the beauty of these boards are that many folks can jump in and provide an overall balanced view.


Could I also make one more observation. Getting to 46 was humbling. I had always thought how much I would know and experienced I would be once I climbed all the high peaks. Instead, I realized how much I didn't know and that I was entering a new area where I was really only a beginner and had been introduced only to the high peaks and not much more - like slides, peaks with no names, wilderness areas, lakes....

[sacco]

just for the record, i only wear sneakers from may-november, depending on conditions

[redhawk]

I tend to bend the other way, making people aware of what can very easily happen and warning more then encouraging.

Of course when you are an experienced have been lost or stranded for several days in foul weather, and when you have worked SAR and have done enough recoveries as well as rescues, then you tend to err on the side of caution.

I am a great believer that "there is always another day" if there is any doubt at all.

I would rather have someone upset with me and alive, then encourage them and have them injured or killed.

I've even taken grief here a couple of times for discouraging people but I remain steadfast (A cool "intellectual word for "bullheaded") in my beliefs.

[Mavs00]

You knew I'd chime with my big mouth on this one. (I get the feeling Dick was talking bout me anyway).

I actually have struggled with this question. Most of you know, I have a website that post trail descriptions on all 46 peaks. I sometimes fear that maybe I'm providing too much information. But, eventually (as far as people are concerned) I came around to Oldsmores and Rick's way of thinking. You make your own choice.

I have, however added a "disclaimer" on my site (main page), that basically states that 1) I'm no expert. 2) these are MY interpretations of the route only, and 3) these are "point in time" descriptions, the route I describe today, may be altered or gone tomorow. But ultimately, ITS ON YOU, the hiker, to realistically look at your own (or your childs) ability or skill and make determinations from that, not from my advice.

A bigger struggle for me is, what impact DOES this advice have on the mountains. For example, One of my routes describes a total bushwack approach to a high peak. There is not even a well defined herd path. My trip report (complete with pictures) describes the route to a tee and I've had at least 20-25 people e-mail me saying "I took that route" and thank me the advice. I've not been back, but truthfully, I hope a herd path has not developed. I certainly DID NOT pioneer this route (it been in far more prominant publishing than my little site), but posting it may have helped encourage 1-2 others to try it out. IS THAT BAD. I'm really not sure yet.

Same for any trip report or photos on here or elsewhere. Might your advice attract people to routes they might not otherwise take. It surley might, I know I've selected routes from here and other internet sources. Is that good or bad? I tent to the flip side of the coin, which is DISPENSING INFORMATION. By giving it to people (that are gonna hike anyway), you are providing them the ability to "walk responsibily" and hopefully they'll do just that. There is nothing more irksome to me than to see people get out of thier car at the trailhead at noon, pull out some crappy map and then decide to climb Algonquin after looking at it for 2 minutes.

So yeah, it's a struggle for me, and I admit, At times I've considered closing portions of my site (or making them less puplic) for these very reason. As far as advice on here (or other BB's), like everybody else that posts, If I know (or feel I do) the answer to a question, I'll likely share it. But it's you (the end user) that is free to discard, ignore,or accept it as you please.

[Willie]

Is it right to attempt to size up the abilities of others on the trail? Should you give unsolicited advice on the trail? They may not look experienced, but the reality may be they know the trail better than you....

These questions are interesting. My answer is "no" - with one exception. A few years ago I was camping near Feldspar Brook Lean-to and an injured hiker hobbled into my camp site at night. The next morning I evaluated her ankle and advised her to stay put while I got help. Eventually, she was airlifted out. The point is, I’ll offer unsolicited advise when a hiker’s well-being is at issue. Otherwise, I keep my mouth shut. Why offer advise if it’s not requested?

Similarly, “sizing up the abilities of others” is something I try not to do, because when I do it, I'm usually wrong. But, I think it’s human nature to "size-up" others. Heck, we do it in these forums. For example:

There is nothing more irksome to me than to see people get out of thier car at the trailhead at noon, pull out some crappy map and then decide to climb Algonquin after looking at it for 2 minutes.

If this were the test, I'd be the biggest goof in the ADKs. For example, in July, I flew from Chicago to Albany, then immediately drove to Giant's trailhead on Route 73 (Ridge Trail). At 2:30 p.m., I stepped out of my car wearing my "city clothes" - I looked like I was on my way to Starbucks rather than Giant. Several people, as they came off Giant, asked me what I was planning to do. I said “I'm climbing Giant and Rocky Peak.” They reminded me of the time, the mileage, the vertical distance, etc., and walked away shaking they're heads. The point is, it’s difficult to draw conclusions about a hiker’s abilities based upon observations alone.

[Mavs00]

Willie,

Perhaps you miss my point. I don't care how people look while walking. I do find it anoying when I have to provide water or food and stuff to this nature (as many, including me) have had to do becasue, somebody, did not bother to "get enough information" to undstand what was they could expect on a particulr hike. I find THAT irresponsible. I'll continue to provide the help, but find it slightly irksome is all.

I'm not talking about someone (like perhaps yourself that day) that's hiking in a GQ outfit, or sandles, or even barefeet. You knew what you were doing, and were not in need of assistance. I knew a dude that (very recently) attempted a Elk Lake/Pinnacle Ridge/Colvin/Nippletop traverse in full pack. He obviously DID NOT know beforehand the distance/difficulty of the hike in the first place and ended up illegally bivy'ing when he ran out of daylight. He never bother to reasearch the route. THAT WAS MY POINT.

Sorry if that was misleading.

[Dick]

Tim said:

(I get the feeling Dick was talking bout me anyway).


As I said at the beginning this thread, I did not have ANYONE on this board in mind in my three "scenarios," and everyone will just have to take my word for it! I deliberately mentioned it, figuring that someone would think I was talking about them

[redhawk]

C'mon Dick,, Fess Up!!

Don't be a wimp.

You don't have to be diplomatic like me!

[kwc]

I have asked for other's opinions about trails in the past on this board and others ... and I will continue to do so in the future. I recognize that whatever anyone writes on here in response to my inquiries (or anyone else's for that matter) is THEIR perspective of a particular trail/hike. But if I haven't gone on that particular trail, it helps me to get some sort of picture of what to expect. I'll take full responsibility for myself when I'm out there on a trail, and I have learned a lot from personal experience AND from reading posts from others.

From reading posts on here, I have a feeling that I wouldn't be able to hike with Kevin 'cause I think he's a fast hiker, and I'm not, and I sure as heck don't wanna slow anyone down (they need to hike their hike too). I'm not sure about Mavs (Tim), I think he hikes faster than I. But I value their reports and perspectives on hikes, and take into consideration that their speed and ability is different than mine.

I haven't chatted with all that many people when out on the trail ... and I haven't really witnessed anyone truly unprepared for the hike they were on. When on the NLP trail I saw only a couple people, and it was nice to stop and chat with them, find out what was ahead and let them know what I'd experienced already.

[Neil]

Whenever I meet someone, anyone, anywhere on any trail and they ask me how far it is to the top, the bottom,the parking lot or whatever I always give the same answer: 5 minutes. Seriously, I never worry about giving advice that may get someone in trouble. I've never even thought about it before. For sure if someone reads about something on internet and then goes out and gets into trouble its their own damn fault. A few months ago I started a thread requesting info about radios. In my post I stated it was so that my son could do a Great Range traverse (sans Dad) from the Loj to the Garden and I could hang out on Gothics or somewhere waiting for him and we could have a communication link. If we had gone ahead with the plan but the radio didn't work and my son had gotten injured and a fiasco ensued etc.etc. I would only have myself to blame, certainly no one on this forum.

One idea might be to post a sticky with safety advice to beginners. (Redhawk's the man for that).

[Rick]

Similarly, “sizing up the abilities of others” is something I try not to do, because when I do it, I'm usually wrong. But, I think it’s human nature to "size-up" others....

Willie,
I think Judgement is the better word.... I learned in a leadership (work not backcountry) that we all do it automatically, most of the time before we even realize we are doing it.

When we don't thin we are doing it, it is not that we aren't judging, but that whatever person we are coming into contact with doesn't raise our awareness level above threshold (be it daydreaming, chatting or what have you) to warrant us start to decipher the messages we are receiving.

Example - You see the same person at a bus stop every day. That person soon becomes invisible to you unless you take interest. Then one day he comes up screaming at everybody - after that he continues with his regular behavior. You are going to be well aware of this guy for quite a few days after this event, until your memory of his behavior has receded.

People say ignore your gut instincts - That you are being silly, but I think more than ever, we need to trust them - It was said that most people's intuition is right on. Great thing to keep in mind whenever you encounter anyone on the trail....