Safety margin in winter.

[Neil]

How much gear is enough, how much is too much and other random thoughts.

I don't want to hijack Percious' pet peeve thread so I'm starting a new one.

My main concern in winter is what if someone is immobilized by an injury. My second concern is to carry as light a pack as possible.

After 30 years of winter hiking and camping and never even coming close to injury I recently watched my only partner take a wicked tumble down an embankment at 2pm. We were far, far away from help and our survival kit consisted of matches and some extra clothing. (A week earlier I did carry a sleeping bag and my partner a sleeping pad as deference to double digit sub-zero temps.)

Say the victim is lucky enough to have a bag of some sort. The second person who stays with the victim while the other (if there are any others)goes for help might become a victim himself if they end up staying out overnight.

An all night fire requires a huge amount of wood and I've noticed that the best wood is found in relatively flat areas where the chances of an accident are pretty slim. Also, if you light a fire on top of the snow it will sink down and suffocate, melt the snow and make everything wet etc. You have to dig down to the ground or lay down 2 or 3 layers of 6 foot long large green logs.
Without a good saw this aint easy. I never carry a saw on day hikes.

Nevertheless, the chances of breaking a leg or being immobilized are very remote and the best medicine of course is prevention. I believe most accidents will happen on the steep descents when light may be fading, members are tired and happy about making the summit and perhaps a bit careless. This is the time to be extra careful and to go as slow as necessary to maintain full control. Being strong and in shape is another preventive measure. Group size is an important factor as well. The more in the group the greater are the odds that someone will get hurt but the smaller the group the less resources are available.
Anybody else care to comment?

[percious]

I have thought about this a lot over the past few years. They key here is having enough gear to survive the situation, not to be comfortable. Since I am a programmer, it is an absolute necessity that I leave with all of my fingers. Here is my winter daypack emergency gear list (assume I hike with only a polypro shirt on top):

25 degree sleeping bag - 2lb
Thermolite sleeping pad - 9oz
Fairly Extensive First aid kit
Down Jacket
Fleece Jacket
Waterproof Shell Layer
Emergency Blanket
25+ feet of chord
Extra Hat(s)/Gloves
1 Liter more water than I think I need

If there is considerable risk in the form of Exposure or Fall risk (read: Marcy) I also bring:
Emergency bivy/shelter.
Thermal pants.

With my camera, and water and food, I am looking at 25lb.
Since I am used to carrying my son around on dayhikes in the warmer months, this is not much of a burden. (Ask Kevin how much it burdened me...) It is possible to split these items between 2 people, because you probably only really need a set up for 1 person.

Maybe all of this is overkill. I have yet to find out, but the assurance that things will be survivable in case of catastrophy is worth the carried lbs.

-percious

[Kevin]

Great topic Neil, one I've discussed with several people on/off the trail.

I carry a small emergency kit (bandaids, emergency sleeping bag, water purifying tablets, matches, extra socks/underwear, 1 extra layer top, map/compass). When atop Street Mt Chris and I were discussing this very subject, and I amazed ME with my answer!

The key is to understand the principles of staying warm and unexposed. Even serious injuries, while painful, won't kill you right away if you're kept warm and out of the wind while someone goes for help. A good emergency blanket and a snow cave can go a long way towards saving someone if it's real cold out. Bringing large animals on a hike is great so you can cut their stomach open with your light saber and climb inside their warm corpse and out of the wind.

[Neil]

The big pack idea makes me wonder...about a setup where a sleeping bag "bottom" could be attached to a down jacket.

[sacco]

...and you still need a ground pad.

the down underneath you will compress so well that it's completely useless.

[redhawk]

You folks do a lot different then myself, I don't do the peaks. I will pass on my thoughts about the winter hiking.

Minimum amount of people, 3, and it really should be four.
Sleeping bag, Liner, Bivy and Pad along with a contractor grade and size plastic bag.
Firestarter, firestarter and more firestarter, saw or hatchet of some kind. Collapsible shovel, for making windbreak or shelter.
Emergency Blanket, and hand and toe warmers (which as stated earlier can be put in the bivy or bag to remain warm). Water.
Layers of clothes starting with a base of polypro or wool, wool shirt and pants, nylon base layer. Mittens, Balaclava. Parka for those walking out. (anyone injured should be in the bag and well covered.

GPS, to take waypoints of the injured, to make it easier for the SAR team to find them. Radio for communication when in range.

And I have always favored the polyfill sleeping bags to down. I prefer the security of not worrying as much about getting it wet as for the few extra ounces.

Thats the stuff I want to make sure I have when I go, "Just in case"

[percious]

That's why I endorse AMP'sThermolite Pad. 9 oz, and it can be used in conjunction with a Thermarest Prolite 3 pad for when you are asleep at night. Added benefit... it is waterproof, so you can bust it out when hanging on the summit drinking beer. It literally makes your but feel toasty while sitting on it.

-percious

P.S. Sorry for the self promotion. Just what works for me...

[Neil]

No way around it. To play extra safe in the winter one needs a 3000 cu in pack, a sleeping bag rated to what...0 deg. F? A pad (I'd go thin and light) and a saw. Sacco, can this be done and have a pack weight incl. 3 qts. water plus food at 25 lbs?
I think a cell phone would be good. Doug (Hillman)'s got reception half way up Seymour.

[percious]

I have a Gregory G-pack, which only weighs 2 1/2 lbs.
Usually, if your pack is less than 25lbs you can take the metal stays out which helps a ton.

-percious

[Johnnycakes]

This is my setup for winter day hikes:

WEARING

Bergelene boxers (lightweight)
Bergelene long sleeve zip turtleneck (midweight)
Liner socks
Wool socks
Insulated boots
Gaiters
Liner gloves
Insulated overmitt
Lightweight balaclava with baseball cap underneath
Schoeller Dryskin pants
Schoeller Drysin jacket with hood
Map and chapstick (in pockets)
Snowshoes

IN PACK

Main compartment (from bottom of pack to top):
20" by 12" piece of foam pad (2-3 ounces)
Advance Concepts emergency bivy sack (5 ounces)
RedLedge full zip waterproof/breathable pants (9-10 ounces)
Mountain Hardwear Epic waterproof/breathable parka (14 ounces)
GoLite Polarguard 3D synthetic parka with hood (19 ounces)
Ski goggles (if I'll be above treeline)

Inner sleeve pocket in main compartment:
2-3 liters of complex carb sports drink in Camelback

Lid pocket:
6-12 power/protein bars (or similar)
Neoprene face mask

Outside back pocket:
Pair of Mountaineer Smartwool socks (can double as extra mitts)
Snowshoe repair kit (very complete kit)
Extra batteries for headlamp and GPS
Extra flashlight (very small LED light)
Waterproof, windproof matches
Lighter
Firestarter
Knife
Chemical handwarmers and toe warmers
Signal mirror
Vapor barrier gloves, socks, and vest (very lightweight plastic)
Toilet paper
Extra shoelaces
Small first aid kit (drugs, tape for blisters, ace bandage, etc.)

Two pockets on pack hipbelt:
GPS
Compass w/whistle
Headlamp

Pack itself:
Pack placed on ground for padding for use in emergency bivy

This set up might appear rather spartan, but if temperatures are going to be extreme, or if I am hiking by myself (very rare), I'll consider adding 200 weight full zip fleece pants or a 20 F down sleeping bag (2 pounds). I'll also adjust my top base layer depending on the weather forecast; midweight Bergelene for normal winter conditions, Powerstretch top for extreme cold winter conditions.

This setup, including food and water, probably weighs in around 18 pounds. If I end up carrying my snowshoes on my pack, add another 4 pounds.

I don't carry any extra base layers, as the Schoeller Dryskin fabric is just unbelievable at managing moisture. I really feel there is no need for extra base layers with this set up.

I feel that I could spend the night out and survive given what I carry. I sure as hell wouldn't sleep that well, but I think I would make it. If I were going to be in the White Mountains with significant time above treeline, the sleeping bag would come along on every trip. Just about all my hiking is in the Adirondack High Peaks.

John

[Mavs00]

With the exception of brand names of outer clothing and a few of the emergency food items (I'd asoon stave than eat those dreaded powerbars ), my winter pack is fairly similar to Johnnycakes. This makes me feel good, cuz he certainly knows his s***.

My goal is to survive for the night, possibly two. It'd be a miserable night or two, but I'd live. Also, I'm one that goes conservative on temps, If temps are gonna be sustained (24 hours) in the minus -10 to -15 range, I'll likely not go out. I've no interest in survival hiking (which I define as the primary focus is surviving, not enjoying the hike). So my pack seems right for me. Also, one important thing I leave out of my pack, is MY EXACT ITINERARY (which I do not deviate from) and my expected time out with the time they should begin to worry. Many people overlook this simple step.

On my last few bushwacks, I left electronic and paper GPS waypoints for every .25 miles of my bushwhack route, with my wife. I also gave her the "call for help" time, which was significantly less tolerant (hours) than the summer one (within a day or so ).

[JimB]

My pack contents are similar to that mentioned by others. On most of the trips we go on I carry most of the survival gear while my partners are in the fast and light mode. For a pack I have a 3000 ci Eureka Pipe Dream that is made specifically for winter activities so the gear fits quite well in and on it. Because I usually hike with my son or my brother I carry enough to hopefully survive while one us hikes out to get help. This means a definite overnight so I plan accordingly. Besides what I’m wearing I carry;
Hooded Gore-Tex type coat
Down jacket
Thick fleece shirt
Insulated nylon snow pants
Thick wool balaclava with felt nose piece
Wool hat
Extra gloves and XL mittens with cuffs
2 pairs of wool socks
This stuff (except for the hooded coat) is stuffed into a plastic bag that I always put into whatever pack I’m using. I also include 4 or 5 plastic grocery bags for VB or emergency use. The coat is where I can get at it when quickly needed.

Then I have another plastic bag with misc survival things that I can also shift between different packs. Mostly it consists of little stuff sacks labeled with marker pens to quickly find an item when needed.
First aid kit; Ibuprofen, ace bandages w/ safety pins, sports tape, first aid cream,etc.
Survival bag; firestarter sticks, waterproof matches, Aqua tabs, whistle, cheap space blanket, candle stub, long piece of small cord, couple of chemical warmers.
Repair kit; small cheap leatherman type tool, length of light guage wire coiled, nylon zip ties, 2 or 3 shoelaces, length of duct tape around pencil,
Ziplock bag: candle lantern w/ 4 or 5 candles, waterproof matches,
Nylon bivy bag. This is just a big waterproof sack about 7 feet long.
Insulated space tarp. About 6x8, Red on one side and reflective on the other with insulation between. Grommets around edge.


This gear doesn’t weigh that much. If we were going way back like mid week in the Santanonis or something I would add my Coleman peak 1 and a small pot for hot water or use the pot as a digging tool. If it was very cold I might include a light sleeping bag in one of our packs to add a little safety margin. With the tarp as a cover and candle lantern for heat I feel quite safe. I didn’t include regular winter gear like snowshoes, map, compass, lights etc as that goes without saying.

[Johnnycakes]

Mavs,

Thanks for the compliment. I'm with you on bagging the hike in extreme cold temperatures. Anything below -15 F just isn't that enjoyable (unless there is a very strong sun, no clouds, and minimal wind). I would just as soon reschedule my hike than spend the enire day with painfully cold toes and fingers. I know there is gear out there that will function at those temperatures, but for me, there are better things to do in that kind of weather, like doing my taxes, or anything else that can be done indoors. I've done a few hikes in those kind of temps when I first decided to go for my Winter 46. I was surprised in some ways by the extremes that the body can function under, but it doesn't leave much room for error.

John

[Kevin]

Anyone care to 'break down' their snowshoe repair kit? I completely forgot to build on earlier in the season until I saw it mentioned here.

I'm thinking wire would be one key ingredient...

I'll probably get whatever items I can at Walmart, not expecting it to weigh much or take up much space.

[Johnnycakes]

Snowshoe repair kit:

2-4 feet of duct tape

1-2 two foot compression straps

2-3 sets of butterfly nuts and bolts
Good for repairs on Tubbs/Atlas style shoes to repair broken rivets on the decking. Just pop the bolt through and tighten up the butterfly nut. No tools needed.

4-6 feet of utility line (rope), around 2 mm I think (but could be 3 mm, I'm not sure)

4-6 heavy duty nylone cable ties