Do you feel guilty?

[Neil]

I get the impression that North America is on the biggest guilt trip in the history of mankind.

The food we eat, the gas we burn, the forest products we consume, the drugs we take, the energy we consume, the computers we throw away, the relentless consumerism, the booze we drink, the people that are poor....just to name those potential guilt trips.

Personally, I've had it with the guilt trip and am stepping off the guilt train.

We have attained the highest standard of living, the best health and longevity, the safest life and the highest level of consciousness, ever. I believe that humans have never enjoyed such a potential for wonderful living as we have created for ourselves. Instead of sitting around feeling guilty I have decided to live my life to the utmost of health, happiness and adventure. I also plan on squeezing the last drop out of modern day knowledge and technology in order to enjoy my remaining decades on Earth even more.

What about you?

[Hobbitling]

The best way to step off the guilt train is to stop doing things that make you feel guilty, not numb your conscience and keep on doing them.

Its a false choice. you don't have to give up health, happiness, and adventure to live without waste, consumerism, and indifference (or contributing to) to other peoples suffering. We've just bought into a very narrow definition of how to achieve happiness (BUY MORE STUFF !!..... STUFF WILL MAKE YOU HAPPY.....CONVENIENCE IS THE HIGHEST GOAL !!...... YOU DESERVE IT!!)

[chairrock]

Well said Neil,and on your BIRTHDAY no less, but then you would lose alot of your "hits" on this forum if we don't b**** about something! A good friend said the same thing to me when I commented on his shopping at Walmart instead of "Mom and Pop" stores,"I have to look out for myself!" Selfish? maybe...pass the corkscrew will ya?

[redhawk]

I get the impression that North America is on the biggest guilt trip in the history of mankind.

The food we eat, the gas we burn, the forest products we consume, the drugs we take, the energy we consume, the computers we throw away, the relentless consumerism, the booze we drink, the people that are poor....just to name those potential guilt trips.

Personally, I've had it with the guilt trip and am stepping off the guilt train.

We have attained the highest standard of living, the best health and longevity, the safest life and the highest level of consciousness, ever. I believe that humans have never enjoyed such a potential for wonderful living as we have created for ourselves. Instead of sitting around feeling guilty I have decided to live my life to the utmost of health, happiness and adventure. I also plan on squeezing the last drop out of modern day knowledge and technology in order to enjoy my remaining decades on Earth even more.

What about you?

Actually Neil, among the Industrialized nations the United States has the highest mortality rate and the lowest life expectancy.

it also has the worst health care system and the biggest obesity problem.

Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand, Germany Japan, France, Spain, Portugal, Luxembourg, Monaco and several other countries lead the United States in Standard of Living.

We also run about last among the industrialized nations in Education.

I don't know about Canada, but the US doesn't have a lot to brag about.

I realize a lot of people aren't going to like what I've said, but they should do some research and they will find it's true.

Do I feel Guilty? Nope. Isn't my generation or culture that screwed things up.

Hawk

[qam1]

Not at all!!!!!!!!!!!

And that most certainly includes issues regarding the environment

There’s only one culture in history of the world that ever gave one flying fig about preserving the environment and that is the modern western industrial one.

And the reason is the western industrial culture has given us a life style that we have plenty of free time to worry about and take action. Does anyone really think someone in some 3rd world hell hole cares about acid rain or deforestation. No they don’t, they are too busy just trying to survive day to day to care about such things.

It was western culture that brought us things like the Adirondack and national parks, not any other culture. We have exponentially more to be proud of than feel guilty about.

Actually Neil, among the Industrialized nations the United States has the highest mortality rate

Huh? The mortality rate is 100% what ever country you go to

and the lowest life expectancy.

We are 29th out of 191

Not to shabby, considering we have a large number of African-Americans, not to be racist, but they do generally have lower life expectancies than other races which does bring our number down. And African Americans most certainly live longer here than they do in any African country.

it also has the worst health care system

Do many Americans go to countries with socialized medicine to get treatment or do many people in countries with socialized medicine come to America to get treatment?

and the biggest obesity problem.

Besides moral busybody nanny Staters, who really gives a rat’s !@#^

Now really, what does that have to do with anything?

We also run about last among the industrialized nations in Education.

Yet we are 1st in Nobel prize winners, inventions, medicines discovered, planets visited and men who have set foot on the moon. Not to mention the internet wouldn't be what it is if it would exist at all if it wasn't for America.

I don't know about Canada, but the US doesn't have a lot to brag about.

I realize a lot of people aren't going to like what I've said, but they should do some research and they will find it's true.

Yes you are right, the world was such a wonderful place with no wars, no oppression, famines and everyone lived in harmony with nature in a perfect utopia, all until along came America and ruined it all.

Pleesssse give me a break.

I will leave you with a link for a Canadian's take on the evvvill US of A

STAND PROUD AMERICA

Gordon Sinclair Sept. 11, 2001
This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.
You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times - and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."

Stand proud, America!

Gordon Sinclair is A Canadian Television Commentator

[redhawk]

Well, time will tell. And someday westerners might even take the time to check the facts.

Also QAM, note that I said among the
"Industrialized (or "developed") Nations", there aren't 121 of them, there are 36 by definition so just where do you think a ranking of 29 puts the US among them? That was in response to neils post that claimed "We have attained the highest standard of living, the best health and longevity, the safest life and the highest level of consciousness, ever." Your rebuttal actually bears me out.

And actually it's not African Americans that bring the mortality rate up, it's Native Americans. It's worse on the Pine ridge reservation, dead last in fact, even compared to third world countries like Somalia and Chad. But suppose you were right, suppose the mortality rate is highest amongst African Americans? What's your point? Doesn't it actually speak against the health care system if one ethnic group has better living and medical conditions then another? Whatever happened to ""Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free..."?

And I suppose It's the Indians fault, that there life expectancy is so low, even though by treaty, the US pledged to take care of our needs. The health care system on the reservations is close to non existent and many of the reasons for the mortality rate is due to thinks like arsenic in the water from gold mining and radiation in the water from uranium mining. All of which contributes to what you would consider the prosperity of this nation. And the current administration has talked about "health care for the Iraqis" but not for the American Indians.

And let me make sure I have this straight. America is the only nation concerned about the environment? So then what's the deal with 175 nations ratifying the Kyoto treaty, but the US not being one of them? Hmm.

Hawk

[Neil]

Whatever the American or Canadian guv'ments, in all their futility, decide to do about ordering up a nice new environmentally friendly clean environment (not unlike ordering an all-dressed pizza) I'll be too busy living life to really notice.

My car might get 2 or 3 miles per gallon more or less than anyone else's.

Yawn.

[redhawk]

There's a difference between "Guilt" and "responsibility"

No, I'm trying to point a finger at any particular group "being responsible" for the current state of affairs. It's a collective thing.

But, I think that the "I didn't cause it so I shouldn't fix it" train of thought is wrong.

Someone throws a rock through your window in February. If YOU don't fix it, YOU'LL still be cold. Now apply that globally.

[Lute Hawkins]

And let me make sure I have this straight. America is the only nation concerned about the environment? So then what's the deal with 175 nations ratifying the Kyoto treaty, but the US not being one of them? Hmm.
Hawk

Of the 175 nations who ratified the thing, approximately 34 set pollution reduction target levels. China and India, two extremely heavy polluters, are among the 131 who set none. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ol_signatories

As far as America being the only nation concerned about the envorinment, well of course it isn't, but how many other countries place any emphasis on creating national and state parks in an effort to preserve nature? Outside the North American continent, how much land in other countries is conserved/preserved against development?

[redhawk]

Of the 175 nations who ratified the thing, approximately 34 set pollution reduction target levels. China and India, two extremely heavy polluters, are among the 131 who set none. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ol_signatories

So, then our policies are controlled by what other nations do not do? I think we were polluting longer than india or china, and i believe that we are STILL the leading polluter, although China is close to surpassing us.

If we are such a powerful and wise nation, then shouldn't we be leading by example? I guess we are, China and India are following ours.

Point is, someone should be leading the way and e always seem to be in a rush to lead everything else, except for land mine banning (Guess which country manufactures and exports the most land mines).

As far as America being the only nation concerned about the envorinment, well of course it isn't, but how many other countries place any emphasis on creating national and state parks in an effort to preserve nature? Outside the North American continent, how much land in other countries is conserved/preserved against development?

Africa, South America, Australia, New Zealand, and Asia all have much more undeveloped land then we do. Many countries have yet to develop so much area that there is little wilderness left. And like America, many of them will probably start to protect it only when it becomes clear how much damage they have done. And as soon as they do, the process will begin to exploit the resources in spite of the protections.

And how much do we really protect the land? many of the meadows in out National Parks are being destroyed by the governments policy of allowing grazing by domestic livestock. You can't drink or even purify the water on the Upper Missouri River in the Missouri Breaks National monument because of pesticides, herbicides and the runoff of animal waste from the grazing that is allowed on BLM lands. And that is a situation that is occurring in many "protected" places.

There have been several bills in Congress to try to create a "Wounded Knee national monument" on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation to "protect it". Now it's done fine for over 100 years without any government "protection", but the funny thing is that the move to "protect" the monument involved over 40 square miles (The monument and Wounded Knee Creek is about 15 acres) and was initiated after discovery of one of the richest uranium pockets in the world was found on land about 5 miles from Wounded Knee and the Oglala would not sell the mineral rights.

So in may cases, my people at least have learned that whenever the government wants to "protect us" we hide the silverware and keep our hands on out pocketbooks.

Why do you think many developers keep trying to convince New Yorkers to allow the government to "protect" the Adirondacks by making it a national park? Developers!! (Grab your wallets)

Maybe I sound Anti American, I'm not. I fought for her, volunteered when other were dodging the draft. But when I think of the principles I thought we stood for, in spite of the treatment of my culture, and I see what is taking place now, I'm angry, and ashamed but I'm sure as hell not guilty.

Hawk

[Neil]

Go ahead, share the burden of collective guilt.

Interesting arguments notwithstanding, I feel none. When hiking Marcy on Sunday I ate blueberries that a friend had given us. They were likely grown with pesticides and cheap labor. Then they were loaded onto a refrigerated truck and driven all the way to Montreal. They were delicious. I felt no guilt.

As to the standard of living "we" enjoy, I was referring to the people for who my no-guilt thesis was intended. The members of this forum.

Responsibility is much better than guilt but one can only do so much.


From Wikipedia:

Some thinkers have theorized that guilt is used as a tool of social control. Since guilty people feel they are undeserving, they are less likely to assert their rights and prerogatives. Thus, those in power seek to cultivate a sense of guilt among the populace, in order to make them more tractable.

As with any other emotion, guilt can be manipulated to control or influence others.

[spiralsands]

Neil, back to what you were asking for a minute. I read your post yesterday and thought about it all evening. There is alot of guilt in our culture, in our religions, in our families. Sometimes guilt is used to control people. Maybe that 'global guilt' progressive industrialized societies are imposing is just a way to keep their populations aware of the impact of their lifestyles on other cultures or environments.

I grew up being taught Catholicism. No guilt there! Kidding of course. Guilt keeps up in line with religion. Look at South America. There is no shortage of filthy street children to hold up to the cameras and beg for money for the Christian Children's Fund. Maybe if the church would let the women prevent pregnancy then fewer children would be suffering. I realized that religion was all about controlling people and especially women. When I told my mom that I didn't believe in God anymore she beat the be-jesus out of me. These days, I'm probably the happiest person in my family.

And then there is the family. Ever since I bore my daughter, 22 years ago, I have heard news reports, seen tv shows, read articles about how single parents are the scourge of this country, leaving their latch-key children to come home alone to an empty house with no cookies and milk waiting for them. Well, I raised an intelligent, responsible young lady who graduated summa cum laude, who doesn't drink or smoke and has a higher ethical sense than any other young person her age I have met so far. And I did it all by myself. The forces and pressures that condemned my single status were guilt
driven by a society that pretends to care for children but does nothing to support them. Therefore, like the french soldier on the turrets in the Monty Python movie "The Holy Grail" I say to those forces and pressures," I piss at you!"

We're not responsible for those things we were never able to control. In the past, I expended alot of energy working like a fool for several public issues for the public good. I learned that the public didn't care much unless it hindered them from getting lots of cheap material items and their drug of choice. Hedonism, materialism is just another drug that you crash from after it ruins your health and spirit.

So do we still want to indulge in life? Of course we do. But I think you'll agree that the living-to-the-fullest should be done with a warm, true heart. And that joy for life is the one that will really make you happy, make your spirit happy, bring your family and friends closer to you.

[WinterWarlock]

STAND PROUD AMERICA

Gordon Sinclair Sept. 11, 2001

This wasn't from 2001 - it was from during the Vietnam War in 1973 and was resurrected. In fact, the first couple paragraphs were removed to make it seem like it was new in 2001. Gordon Sinclair died in 1984...

[Rookie]

This is heavy stuff. It's great to read and learn from you all.
There sure are some learned people here.

Bravo Neil ! Choosing to be happier....this rubs off on people and is infectious.
Happier people make the world a better place in more ways than people realize. We all have known people that are great to be around and elevate us. It's hard to measure how good this is.
There are massive problems with the world today and , given human insecurity (the fuel for greed and control) they seem insurmountable.
Choose not to have this ruin your time here.

[Rik]

Guilt is a waste of energy. Do what you truly believe is right and accept responsibility when you screw up. No need for guilt.