Shocking Origins of Public Education

[Outsider]

John Gatto is the former New York State Teacher of the Year who renounced the government school system in his landmark book DUMBING US DOWN.

http://4brevard.com/choice/Public_Education.htm

There is more to this than most people realize. Here is a smart guy trying to tell us something the establishment wants to keep quiet.

Caveat Emptor, but it may disturb blissful ignorance...

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[Hobbitling]

And this has what to do with the adirondacks?

[Lute Hawkins]

I reckon it up-n-explains the spellin' mistakes what mosta you all make.

[Hobbitling]

I'm not saying it doesnt have anything to do with the adirondacks, or that its not an important issue, but if you post something like this, you should probably try to explain the relevance to this particular forum. Are there no education forums out there?

Some of us ignorant public school grads (from Vermont especially!) might not immediately grasp the connection.

[chairrock]

Where I come from we use moss-bunkers to chum.....and Lute,I never could spell, I guess it was my fear of those nuns in grade school....

[redhawk]

And this has what to do with the adirondacks?

If the current generation is not educated properly, they won't be smart enough to understand the need for protecting the Adirondack park.....

Now go back to the barrow........

hawk

[Outsider]

I'm not saying it doesnt have anything to do with the adirondacks, or that its not an important issue, but if you post something like this, you should probably try to explain the relevance to this particular forum. Are there no education forums out there?

Some of us ignorant public school grads (from Vermont especially!) might not immediately grasp the connection.

1. "BY THE FIRESIDE" RULES
A place for discussion of topics that don't fall easily within the other forum sections. Topics may be light or serious, and although Forum Rule #2 regarding off-topic posting will be relaxed somewhat, the scope of topics is not infinitely broad. The administration will monitor this section very closely. As always, “play nicely!"

2. This came as an FYI extension of the "Are you smarter...." thread contemporaneously going on. That is already running into 4 pages, with 61 replies and 824 views so far.

So you can look on this as an effort to provide useful information.

O

[sky]

That book just got on my ever-growing "to read" list.

[Sasquatch]

I'm a teacher, and let me tell you, I don't need a book to tell me that the education system, especially that in NYS is "dumbing down" education. The state tests we give every year are idiotic, counterproductive, and statistically unreliable. I grade the tests as well as proctor them. (Note, I don't grade my own students. I refuse to.) The state gives us guidelines to grade by. The ELA tests were graded so loosely that I had to look at the responses, give it the grade I normally would on a scale of 1-4, then increase the given score by one point. So, if I thought that the response deserved a 1, it got a 2. Prime example, there was a chart on the test. There were two columns and two rows. The y-axis was to name two breeds of dogs mentioned in a reading. The x-axis was to tell the job the corresponding dog did. To grade the test, the student passed so long as they had named two dogs and two matching jobs anywhere on the chart. They didn't have to be in the right position, they could list 50 dogs and 50 jobs, so long as there were two matching pairs. I proctored and graded the 5th grade social studies tests as well. In the written responses, spelling and grammar did not count as part of the score at all, not even if the word was on the page in the reading. The grading has been dumbed down in order for politicians and school districts to look like they're making progress, or at minimum holding their ground. All this does is put pressure on principals and teachers to teach to the test. The higher ups will tell you that they don't teach to the test, but it's a lie. Everyone teaches to the test. We're told to. Not in those exact words, but the message is plenty clear. It's what you're judged on, so you want to see high success rates. Teachers who have no control over student lives outside of the classroom are being judged by the results of a test that doesn't even tell you anything. That's like judging a doctor on whether or not a patient dies by telling the doctor the patient's recent reading list. I'm all for standards so that teachers can all work on the same things in the same rough time schedules and to help ensure that students are learning what they need to learn. These tests though are useless. There is no motivation for the students to do well. The ones that want to do well because their parents, not the teachers who can't, have instilled a belief in them that learning is important are the ones that will do well. Those whose parents take no interest in their education will do nothing. If there were some kind of consequence attached to the test, then maybe it would be worth something. Still, you can't judge a student's performance or progress based on one hour of testing for two or three days. If the state was truly interested in ensuring quality education, the tests would be given in smaller doses several times throughout the year. Students who could not pass the test would be forced to repeat a grade level. This would also allow the tests to identify ineffective teachers as well. Any teacher with high failure rates could be put on a probation, then if there is not some improvement, removed from their position. Neither of those will ever happen though. The teacher's union won't allow it, and the parents won't either. As it stands right now, I have students that should have repeated grade levels, but did not because the parent refuses to allow it. Teachers, principals, counselors, psychologists, special education teachers, and assistant superintendents can all agree that a student needs to repeat a grade, and if the parent says no, it doesn't happen. In some school districts, the student can veto the choice to have them repeat a grade. The education system in this state and this country is going to be hitting a critical state soon where it is in complete collapse. In some areas this has already happened. I've gotten students that transfer into our district from out of state that are perfectly up to grade level according to their file, but can't read, write, heck, sometimes they can't even identify letters and numbers in the 5th grade. How on earth does a kid make it to 5th grade in a mainstream classroom when he can't even identify the letters of the alphabet? This isn't a kid who comes from a non-English speaking home either. This is red-white-and-blue blood this kid bleeds, but he can't do anything academically. I wish this were some crazy exception to the rule, but it happens often enough that teachers aren't shocked by it. The system is messed up. It's broken. Everyone knows it, they even give it lip service. The problem is, those that can fix it won't. Teacher's unions need to be willing to seperate the wheat from the chaff, and the politicians need to be willing to support the teachers. Good luck with that. Most of the teachers are just trying to do their best with what they've got. Uninterested parents of uninterested students, not enough materials, not enough up to date books, and a too often hostile public. Oh well, sorry I got on my soap box, but as I'm sure you can guess, it's a touchy subject in my house. I need to go camping.

[Mavs00]

I'll be honest.................. I'm temped to nuke this thread. Fascinating as the topic may be, it's just nothing that really is gonna add a ton a value to the forum. We'll let it go for now, but at the first sign of discourse or further drifting afield, it'll get tossed.

[Lute Hawkins]

I understand the reasoning behind limiting some topics of discussion, but at the same time, I didn't find anything valueless (is that a real word?) with the topic of this thread.

In a society that purportedly sees itself as enlightened, oftentimes it's good when this type of stuff is put out there for people to see and discuss...and not just as a public service. There is a side benefit which can enhance the board's value: consider that, if some of the people who make Adirondack-related decisions read this board, esoteric topics like education, constitutional rights, et. al., shows them that the people who post their opinions here, have an understanding of more than just a few million acres, and perhaps, maybe, their opinions should carry some weight?

[Hobbitling]

You make a good point Mr Hawkins, and Redhawk, and Outsider.
Sorry for coming across too cranky. I woke up on the wrong side of the burrow yesterday.

I guess thats what the fireside is for eh?

[redhawk]

I'll be honest.................. I'm temped to nuke this thread. Fascinating as the topic may be, it's just nothing that really is gonna add a ton a value to the forum. We'll let it go for now, but at the first sign of discourse or further drifting afield, it'll get tossed.

I think it adds a ton of value to this forum.

It proves we're not all just a bunch of rednecks only interested in running around in the woods.
It points out a caring for something beyond our own recreation. it means we CARE, we're paying attention to the world around us.

ANd that we can also disagree civilly.

You should be a proud papa instead of a cranky old fuddy duddy. I mean I understand some of the crankiness, but it's been three days since the Patriots got their butt's kicked. Time to move on.

Hawk

[DuctTape]

I agree that the civil discussion adds quality to the forum. Of course it is something I am passionate about so I may be slightly biased.

I am also glad that so many people care enough about the future to discuss education. I appreciate those who recognize the problems as well as those who recognize the successes. There are both and that is easy to forget. I know that I can get very down on myself when a student doesn't understand the concept I spent a week designing and implementing a lesson plan to teach that concept. It is easy to focus on that one, and I should. But I should also not forget that the 20 some odd others in the class did learn the concept with differing levels of competency/mastery. I need to celebrate the successes and continue to look for alternative means to reach that one student.

Thanks everyone for the support, and please do continue to voice your concerns. I know it sounds corny, but the kids truly are our future. I honestly believe that, which is why I am in the business I am in.

[Mavs00]

I think it adds a ton of value to this forum.

It proves we're not all just a bunch of rednecks only interested in running around in the woods.
It points out a caring for something beyond our own recreation. it means we CARE, we're paying attention to the world around us.

ANd that we can also disagree civilly.

You should be a proud papa instead of a cranky old fuddy duddy. I mean I understand some of the crankiness, but it's been three days since the Patriots got their butt's kicked. Time to move on.

Hawk

That's pretty much the point, noone really cares what you think.