Cheaters

[Justin]

Anyone else ashamed to be a fan of MLB today?

[redhawk]

Anyone else ashamed to be a fan of MLB today?

It's just sport imitating life.

Most people don't seem to really care. It seems to be the media that's driving the indignation, not the public.

And just for the record, I'm not a fan. Walter O'Malley took care of that in the mid fifties.

Hawk

[adkmoose]

It's just sport imitating life.

Most people don't seem to really care. It seems to be the media that's driving the indignation, not the public.

And just for the record, I'm not a fan. Walter O'Malley took care of that in the mid fifties.

Hawk

Charge me $55 for a ticket and I want to see home runs , I really don't care how you do it.
Charge me $10 and I will gladly watch a 1-0 game.

Walter O'Malley , Who did he play for ?

[redhawk]

Walter O'Malley , Who did he play for ?

Corporate America

[southernadkhiker]

It's just sport imitating life.

Most people don't seem to really care. It seems to be the media that's driving the indignation, not the public.

And just for the record, I'm not a fan. Walter O'Malley took care of that in the mid fifties.

Hawk

Most people don't seem to care? Who's most people? Maybe people that dont watch/follow baseball. But I sure as hell do. As well as my baseball obsessed family care very much so, as well as parent's across america who try to raise their kids to do the right things in life, and to never cheat. This is one of the saddest days that I have ever experienced in regard to professional sports, in my life. It makes me think that learning how to throw a curve with my dad, smelling the sweet grass in the outfield, and playing all those little league games as a kid were for complete b/s (assuming I made it into the major leagues).

It's absolutely an atrocity that this wasn't taken care of earlier because the stats, ratings, and money overall was higher in baseball within the last 10 years than its ever been. And the one person who knew all about it, who sat on his high horse today infront of the media world and stated, "As commisioner I will do something about it". Yea right. No one is gonna convince me that Mr. Selig didnt know exactly what he was doing and exactly how much of a degree he was turning his head from this situation because it brought in more $ to his pockets.

And how can the public drive this issue or 'indignation' home without having the access to the important information that the media has/gains access too? It's not like we can dig into archives that are buried within the mitchell report. All we as the public can do is follow these stories that the media puts out there, and make our determinations base on that-facts, names, and information in regards to baseball.

This is yet another sad day for american sports, and yet another indication that the american society is completely breaking down into a society where there are no values, no morals, and no sense of dignity taught to others.

[Deb dePeyster]

I've already been through this with some of my favorite athletes in professional cycling - Tyler Hamilton was a big blow - but it's a huge let-down nonetheless.
Somewhere between 5-7 years ago Andy Pettite went from lanky to huge. At the time he credited his weight room regime with his best friend Roger Clemens. Guess he wasn't talking about free weights.

[ellsaf]

I don't understand the surprise of the finding. I'm sure the NFL has the same situation and to a lesser degree the other major league sports. I've read, and I believe this, that the use of muscle and adrenaline enhancing drugs are definately being used by college football players and reports indicate use even among highschool players. I come from a rural town in WI where sports were everything. It's not hard to figure out how this got out of control. When players are making megamillions, the need and desire to stay on top trumps all ethical and sometimes moral decisions. Money and fame are the most enticing drugs in the universe. It's really our fault, we support the voracous appetite of the major leagues for glamour and money, the sport itself seems to have become a minor issue. It's almost painful for us to go to a game as a family, we can hardly do it and enjoy it for less than $200. I used to be a big Packer fan and in the last 20 years a Mets fan, now, without paying for cable I can't see a game and we can hardly afford to go to one. I have been disappointed for years.

[redhawk]

Most people don't seem to care? Who's most people? Maybe people that dont watch/follow baseball. But I sure as hell do. As well as my baseball obsessed family care very much so, as well as parent's across america who try to raise their kids to do the right things in life, and to never cheat. This is one of the saddest days that I have ever experienced in regard to professional sports, in my life. It makes me think that learning how to throw a curve with my dad, smelling the sweet grass in the outfield, and playing all those little league games as a kid were for complete b/s (assuming I made it into the major leagues).

It's absolutely an atrocity that this wasn't taken care of earlier because the stats, ratings, and money overall was higher in baseball within the last 10 years than its ever been. And the one person who knew all about it, who sat on his high horse today infront of the media world and stated, "As commisioner I will do something about it". Yea right. No one is gonna convince me that Mr. Selig didnt know exactly what he was doing and exactly how much of a degree he was turning his head from this situation because it brought in more $ to his pockets.

And how can the public drive this issue or 'indignation' home without having the access to the important information that the media has/gains access too? It's not like we can dig into archives that are buried within the mitchell report. All we as the public can do is follow these stories that the media puts out there, and make our determinations base on that-facts, names, and information in regards to baseball.

This is yet another sad day for american sports, and yet another indication that the american society is completely breaking down into a society where there are no values, no morals, and no sense of dignity taught to others.

The Mitchell report is based more on hearsay then any factual evidence. In a court of law it would probably be thrown out.

It has been evident to anyone with any common sense that the use of performance enhancing drugs has been in use for quite a while.

If the fans had really cared, they could have forced action a long time ago by the use of the boycott. Not attending games and not watching them on TV.

How much of a cry did you see from the public demanding an investigation? Other then the media driven stuff, I didn't see a lot from the fans.

MLB did everything it could to increase "fan interest" as they like to put it. Smaller parks, aluminum bats. changed the balls, etc, etc. For those reason alone, any records being broken is a sham. Hitting a home run today is easier then it was back in Ruth, Mantles, Aaron's time. Yet I never saw that as an issue with fans.

So fans pretty much got what they wanted, at the expense of the "integrity of the game". An expression that as far as I'm concerned is about as relevant as Weapons of mass destruction.

The players aren't interested in integrity, it's money. The players union has done everything it can to block testing, "co-operating" only when it's a major embarrassment not to. "Invasion of privacy", how about this. Pay me a few million dollars a year for taking random drug tests and you can invade my privacy all you want. It' not an invasion, it's a stipulation of employment, or should be. "If you want to work for me (MLB), then you'll agree to drug testing". You don't have to subject yourself to it if you don't want to work for MLB.

So I stand by what I said. The average fan and the public do not care. If they did, they would have demanded action many years ago.

Whether it's sports, business, or more and more, everyday life, ethics and fairness no longer seem to matter. Entertainment, profit and winning at any cost is pretty much the norm.

Sorry, but that's what the evidence points to, at least to me. Granted, I'm not a fan, I don't watch games, but my head isn't in the sane either. I'm aware of what goes on.
And it was apparent that all of a sudden, out of the blue, a great many player's performances improved greatly in a very short time. If you didn't realize and think that there was something behind it, then shame on you...

It's all this kind of stuff that makes me happy there is still some wilderness I can go to and get away from all of it.

Hawk

[AlSara]

The Devil's Advocate

Before getting overly emotional, please read the title of this post:

What's the difference between working hard and using "juice" and working hard? Those athletes that are blood doping or juicing are NOT cutting corners in the workouts, they are working harder.

Maybe the new energy drinks should be outlawed...they give folks the stamina to do their jobs better and for longer periods. I have no problem with a contracting crew finishing a project ahead of schedule...I am getting what I expected and then some.

The only punishment should be for when control their rage and hurt others. Violence is never the answer.

[southernadkhiker]

The Mitchell report is based more on hearsay then any factual evidence. In a court of law it would probably be thrown out.

It has been evident to anyone with any common sense that the use of performance enhancing drugs has been in use for quite a while.

If the fans had really cared, they could have forced action a long time ago by the use of the boycott. Not attending games and not watching them on TV.

How much of a cry did you see from the public demanding an investigation? Other then the media driven stuff, I didn't see a lot from the fans.

MLB did everything it could to increase "fan interest" as they like to put it. Smaller parks, aluminum bats. changed the balls, etc, etc. For those reason alone, any records being broken is a sham. Hitting a home run today is easier then it was back in Ruth, Mantles, Aaron's time. Yet I never saw that as an issue with fans.

So fans pretty much got what they wanted, at the expense of the "integrity of the game". An expression that as far as I'm concerned is about as relevant as Weapons of mass destruction.

The players aren't interested in integrity, it's money. The players union has done everything it can to block testing, "co-operating" only when it's a major embarrassment not to. "Invasion of privacy", how about this. Pay me a few million dollars a year for taking random drug tests and you can invade my privacy all you want. It' not an invasion, it's a stipulation of employment, or should be. "If you want to work for me (MLB), then you'll agree to drug testing". You don't have to subject yourself to it if you don't want to work for MLB.

So I stand by what I said. The average fan and the public do not care. If they did, they would have demanded action many years ago.

Whether it's sports, business, or more and more, everyday life, ethics and fairness no longer seem to matter. Entertainment, profit and winning at any cost is pretty much the norm.

Sorry, but that's what the evidence points to, at least to me. Granted, I'm not a fan, I don't watch games, but my head isn't in the sane either. I'm aware of what goes on.
And it was apparent that all of a sudden, out of the blue, a great many player's performances improved greatly in a very short time. If you didn't realize and think that there was something behind it, then shame on you...

It's all this kind of stuff that makes me happy there is still some wilderness I can go to and get away from all of it.

Hawk

Listen...I'm not stating that I didnt know that roid's weren't being used by at least half of MLB players within the last 20 or so years. It's not as if this is some incredible surprise to me. I don't have my head buried in the sand. I realize how widespread this has been especially with busts on Marion Jones, Rafael Palmerio, and Floyd Landis.

What I'm saddened by is the fact that now there is the most comprehensive listing of steriod users in the history of american sports, thats documented and printed within a report. Thats what's sad. There's no more here-say on some of these guys, it just is a yes. And it deals with players that I idolized. It's in stone, and it's something that makes me, who always tries to see the good positive side of life, always, see absolutely none of it within a game that I grew up loving.

Take it from an 18 year old's perspective, hawk. I haven't traveled the country, or lived through the gov't b/sing the public such as with watergate, or the start of vietnam, or had the type of experiences that you have had to be cynical or doubt certain people/organizations/ in life yet. I'm still coming from an innocent standpoint of asking myself, "What happened to the game of baseball."

Again, I'm not trying to get all 'emotional' about this as one user stated, it's just my perspective, and as a diehard baseball fan, I care very much about what goes on in and outside of the game.

[redhawk]

Before getting overly emotional, please read the title of this post:

What's the difference between working hard and using "juice" and working hard? Those athletes that are blood doping or juicing are NOT cutting corners in the workouts, they are working harder.

Maybe the new energy drinks should be outlawed...they give folks the stamina to do their jobs better and for longer periods. I have no problem with a contracting crew finishing a project ahead of schedule...I am getting what I expected and then some.

The only punishment should be for when control their rage and hurt others. Violence is never the answer.

The problem Al is the pretense of "integrity".

Instead of admitting it was a problem, MLB looked the other way. The players denied use. So that makes them all liars.

MLB regulated AGAINST steroids and performance enhancers, but did a terrible job of testing and enforcement (by design?) and the players union did all they good to put roadblocks in the testing process.

So, what you had was a sham, and players and management were aware of it. Some players who put performance above integrity used the drugs. others did not. that created an uneven and unfair playing field.

In addition to that, when performance enhancing drugs come into play, then what about the records? Is Bonds Home Run record really better then Aaron's, since Bonds used PEDs and Aaron didn't? I think Not.

Are Bonds, Mcguire's and Sosa's surpassing of Mantle and Maris a greater accomplishment? I don't think so.

And what about all the players who do not use the PED's and work hard? Should they be paid less money because their performance is not as good as those who have?

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who says this is not a problem, is equally responsible for it being allowed to take place. Especially when you consider the health risk associated with steroids, remember Lyle Alzado? Brain cancer from steroid use. I don't know if you have any children or grandchildren, but when they see these "role models" using them, then figure they should too, that it's OK. For that reason alone, i think the professional athletes that use them should be banned from the sport FOREVER. It's certainly a worse violation then what Pete Rose did.

And the records should NOT have an asterisk. The records should be thrown where they belong, down the toilet and any player who it can be Proven used steroids should not be allowed in the Hall of Fame. Maybe a separate entity, the Hall of Shame.

It's cheating and it's lying, it's breaking the rules. Period

hawk

[AlSara]

The problem Al is the pretense of "integrity".

Instead of admitting it was a problem, MLB looked the other way. The players denied use. So that makes them all liars...

It's cheating and it's lying... Period

hawk

Good point, I missed that. I can't argue against such a point. I may not be to most moral person in the world, but I do hold absolute value for truth.

[pico23]

I'm ashamed that cheating is acceptable. I don't know if I will ever be able to take my kids to the HOF. Reason, if cheaters are enshrined, how do I tell my kids cheating isn't acceptable? How do I tell them that using performance enhancing drugs is wrong? All they have to say is, "well dad, if he could do it and make millions of dollars, and get to the hall of fame, why can't I."

and trust me, my kids will be sophist, it runs in the family.

If cheating is OK, how many of you would have surgery performed by a known cheater?

Sure sports are an activity that has no impact on the world, but allowing cheating anywhere sends a message that it is acceptable. And the bottom line, cheaters aren't better than the people that beat by cheating. They are lazy, and hurt hard working people the most.

Why do we strip track stars like Marion Jones of their medals and threaten to put them in jail, but people say Bonds is a witch hunt.

You know what Babe Ruths performance enhancing drugs were? Hotdogs and beer!!! No "Clear" or "Cream". You know what Hank Aaron's were, hard work and natural talent!

Pettite is dead to me, and he was one of my favorite players, and my wifes favorite. IF, and thats an IF, he comes clean and at least admits he knowingly did it I might feel differently. Honestly, only 1 player has come clean and that was Giambi, and I never liked him, but because he was somewhat honest, I actually like him more than I did before the roids. At least Clemens legacy is done. He was over rated anyway. I kept hearing this "best pitcher of all time".

If Clemens is the best of all time he'd be the guy you want pitching game 7 of the world series and I'm guessing 90% of the population would choose someone else.

[pico23]

Charge me $55 for a ticket and I want to see home runs , I really don't care how you do it.
Charge me $10 and I will gladly watch a 1-0 game.

Walter O'Malley , Who did he play for ?

BTW, might just be the sophist in me looking for a good arguement but the homerun ranks as the most over rated thing in sports.

The high last 3 seconds. Once it's gone, it's gone.

Give me doubles, triples, bunt singles in the infield. Anything that can increase the action. Oh, I'll take 1-0 shutout with either great pitching or great defensive plays.

The homeruns, just like the Camden Yards type parks with the increased leg room that acutually puts you FURTHER from the field, are for the casual fan. Don't get me wrong, I love Camden Yards but it wasn't built for the hard core fan, and homeruns aren't the end all for the hard core fan.

My favorite hitters, Jeter, Mattingly, Oniel, Gwynn, Helton, Ramirez. All doubles hitters (with Ramirez being the only semi power hitter), I never liked the big boppers.

Paul Oneil, one of the greatest Yankees of all time, and one of my 3 favorite Yankees changed from a pull hitter with a career high 36 homers, to a doubles gap hitter when he came to the Yankees. He made me regret saying it was a bad trade on the first day he played in stripes. And he only got better and better. His career was invigorated by ignoring the home run and becoming a great hitter. Originally he was a platoon player, by the end of his career the only lefty he didn't hit against was Randy Johnson.

The home run to a real fan is over rated with the exception of the walkoff, that is a work of art and the finest way to rub your opponents nose in the lose!

[adkmoose]

BTW, might just be the sophist in me looking for a good arguement but the homerun ranks as the most over rated thing in sports.

The high last 3 seconds. Once it's gone, it's gone.

Give me doubles, triples, bunt singles in the infield. Anything that can increase the action. Oh, I'll take 1-0 shutout with either great pitching or great defensive plays.

The homeruns, just like the Camden Yards type parks with the increased leg room that acutually puts you FURTHER from the field, are for the casual fan. Don't get me wrong, I love Camden Yards but it wasn't built for the hard core fan, and homeruns aren't the end all for the hard core fan.

My favorite hitters, Jeter, Mattingly, Oniel, Gwynn, Helton, Ramirez. All doubles hitters (with Ramirez being the only semi power hitter), I never liked the big boppers.

Paul Oneil, one of the greatest Yankees of all time, and one of my 3 favorite Yankees changed from a pull hitter with a career high 36 homers, to a doubles gap hitter when he came to the Yankees. He made me regret saying it was a bad trade on the first day he played in stripes. And he only got better and better. His career was invigorated by ignoring the home run and becoming a great hitter. Originally he was a platoon player, by the end of his career the only lefty he didn't hit against was Randy Johnson.

The home run to a real fan is over rated with the exception of the walkoff, that is a work of art and the finest way to rub your opponents nose in the lose!

Oh Yeah , every kid in the world knows who Rusty Staub is because he could lay down a bunt single.