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What we really need is a Touchy-Feely Rambo!
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"If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson -
There comes a point when a man needs to know his limits. Agree?
This guy asked for help. That help he did not get, well, as reported. We really haven't seen any official report. All we have seen is what was reported. But what the guy obviously did was ask for help when it was too late. This was his own fault.
Don't ask for help when you are 100 cc away from death or better yet, when your core body temperature has skyrocketed due to dehydration. It isn't going to help. When this happens it is your own fault though many don't like to push blame on any dead person. Some living person MUST be accountable.
No????
You decide to run a stoplight and kill a family of six. It's your fault.
You decide, no one twisted your arm or held the rhetorical gun to your head, to not drink and die as a result of it, someone else must bear the blame. DUH!!!
No wonder so many get rich with the use of lawyers.
All you have to do is be stupid and strike up a lawsuit.
Yet, really not funny.
"Every piece of venison I eat reminds me of my forefathers and the joy the whitetail brought to them"
-- Adkhunter
Adkhunter Reflective Arrow Wraps
Rockclimbing.com NY Route EditorComment
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Instead of looking at this tragedy from a standpoint of whose "fault" it was or whether someone is going to sue someone over what happened I'd look at it from a standpoint of responsibility. As in "ability to respond". True, the client entered the program intending to push his limits to the utmost but he was putting himself in the hands of people who were "experts". As they watched him slowly die they who were able to respond did not. I would be willing to bet that this BOSS organization exerts a degree of psychological control over their clients once they are in the program and suffering. I believe that they should now be held responsible for the client's death. Holding people accountable for that which they brought about, in this case the death of someone who had passed beyond the ability to think and reason, is not the same as doing something stupid and striking up a lawsuit.
On another note, the fact that people pay that amount of money just to push their limits to the utmost breaking point and expect that process to somehow "change their life" is a sad state of affairs. Something major must be missing from these poor folks lives.The best, the most successful adventurer, is the one having the most fun.Comment
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http://www.boss-inc.com/02front.html in case anyone is interested in joining a trip with BOSS. Also an interesting read--THe destination is "yourself".Comment
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"If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. JohnsonComment
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Hypothetically, when a program holds itself out to be expert in this sort of extreme lunacy, it may not be unreasonable for a person to rely on that representation...after all, the idea of extreme wilderness schools and Everest type climbing programs has been around for a long time...One would naturally expect not to be exposed to negligence, recklessness or criminal behavior on the part of those who have agreed to guide one through this experience. I can't comment on the specific facts of this matter because I haven't read that much except to say I remain stunned.
A hypothetical with similar facts would in all likelihood result in civil and criminal litigation and justifiably so, I would argue.Comment
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and that is another good thing here where another lawyer would argue with some sort of socratic method with a little jurisprudence of criminal law thrown in.
I think the real question is how culpable the guides really were in this situation. We as forum member,s since we will not sit in on any proceedings, will probably never know. Speculation is fun for some though.
Since it is just about legal to charge anyone with anything if we dig deep enough either criminally and especially on the civil side of things I would expect the family to try to gain from this. But really, what is there to gain? or is it all about vengence?
When does the responsibility of one transfer to another? And should it with adults that have no mental deficiencies? (please if you decide to tackle the first question tackle the second as well) This has been argued before.....by scholars at a much higher level than you and I.
Have a good weekend folks. I'll be on rock for the remainder of it trying my best not to get hurt. I'd hate to die and just have a bent family member blame some local municipality for my negligence. If I get dehydrated and refuse to leave the wall to eat a cactus I can blame no one but myself or maybe I should not try to be a tough guy and/or to try to get my monies worth out of something that is a feat that is much above my abilities.
We rock climbers excel in this!!!
"Every piece of venison I eat reminds me of my forefathers and the joy the whitetail brought to them"
-- Adkhunter
Adkhunter Reflective Arrow Wraps
Rockclimbing.com NY Route EditorComment
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I don't know whether you realize this or not, but the person who you are responding to about this is one who would be making the decision!!!When does the responsibility of one transfer to another? And should it with adults that have no mental deficiencies? (please if you decide to tackle the first question tackle the second as well) This has been argued before.....by scholars at a much higher level than you and I.
So i don't think there are too many "scholars at a higher level" for these circumstances then JudgeH
HawkLast edited by redhawk; 05-05-2007, 05:20 PM."If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. JohnsonComment
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Reminds me of fraternities letting their pledges drink themselves to death in order to prove something. It has even happened with water.Die Free and LiveComment
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I remember when that happened with the college kid in Plattsburgh. He actually drank so much water, something happened to his brain and he died from it.
That was a horrible tragedy!"Always drink upstream from the herd."Comment
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Hawk....so instead of trying to just pick apart a statement go and answer the 2 questions.
I know exactly who I am talking to. We all know that just because you obtain a "status" does not mean you are of a scholarly level. I think even Alberto Gonzalas would agree. I'll give him a call in a few hours to ask him.
"Every piece of venison I eat reminds me of my forefathers and the joy the whitetail brought to them"
-- Adkhunter
Adkhunter Reflective Arrow Wraps
Rockclimbing.com NY Route EditorComment
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Lighten up. can't anyone bust on you?Hawk....so instead of trying to just pick apart a statement go and answer the 2 questions.
I know exactly who I am talking to. We all know that just because you obtain a "status" does not mean you are of a scholarly level. I think even Alberto Gonzalas would agree. I'll give him a call in a few hours to ask him.
Besides, I always suck up to judges. you never know when it might pay off.
And don't bother calling Gonzales, I just got off the phone with him and suggested he resign."If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. JohnsonComment
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Now the pressure's really on...Where's Willie from Chicago when you need him!
Speaking generally, (I'm more comfortable ethically discussing it this way), a survivor can seek damages for actual losses (wage earning, etc.). If the actions of others was egregious enough, punitive damages may be appropriate. The state has an interest in the safety of all who come within in its borders and seek to shut an operation down that endangers that safety through civil litigation. On the criminal side, state prosecutors can take a set of facts and determine whether a homicide has occurred... most likely some form of manslaughter. Here, the state's goal is punishment and deterrence. This is a pretty dry answer to Adk Hunter's questions and it may state the obvious...I'm just trying to answer the question.
Is there vengence in litigation? I suppose it's only natural that revenge is a part of the equation...revenge is not always a bad thing. The term "redress" is one I prefer.
When does responsibility of one transfer to another? If I decide to dig a hole in my yard and I dig it so deep it collapses around me and I die...that's my responsibility. If I contract with a construction company to dig the hole and I ask the foreman if it is safe to enter the hole for the thrill of it all and he gives me a hard had and says yes...then my act is based upon the assurances of the company that it is safe. A company representative has said so and I'm acting in reliance of that statement. It may make no sense that I enter a bottomless pit and I may be an idiot, but I would not have done so, it could be argued unless I knew I would survive the event and the foreman told me I would. It can be argued that the company knew or should have known this act was dangerous. In addition, the company may not have been licensed to dig such a hole. They may have had safety violations in the past and the hole may not have been properly dug, etc., etc. The state may decide that this operation is so bad it has to be terminated and people punished. The company has assumed responsibility for my safety. I hope that answers your second question.
Do we all have opinions about certain complaints that are made in court? Of course! But it's the wonder of the best court system in the world that we manage to sift through them and the right thing happens in the end. It ain't perfect but show me a better one! So go out on your rock and answer me that one.
Last edited by Judgeh; 05-06-2007, 07:05 AM.Comment
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