this is why they license guides

[Hobbitling]

the headline grabbed my attention.
"Man dies of thirst during survival test, wilderness leaders had water, didnt offer it"
what is wrong with people

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18443746/

[Neil]

That is the stupidest thing I've heard of yet. Completely asinine. It's a case of criminal negligence.

[redhawk]

I'll bet he won't take that course again!!!

[hillman1]

These survival courses are a complete joke. They wouldn't let him fill his water bottle, to carry it through 100 degree heat in the Utah desert. I would have beaten the fancy pants guide to a bloody wreck in the desert, then stole his emergency water and tied him to a tree letting the red ants bite him until he was screaming for mercy. The guides are allegedly trained in wilderness medicine??? What part of severe dehydration did they miss?? The complete confusion marked by a swollen mouth and tongue? I hope the family sues for millions and wins. Walking with an empty water bottle in the desert doesn't make you more in tune with nature, it ensures a place at the dinner table for the Darwin awards. The participants are just as stupid as the guides in this case.

[Little Rickie]

He asked for help & asked for water and was denied. Manslaughter.

[Judgeh]

I am stunned.

[Connie Bear Orion]

These survival courses are a complete joke. They wouldn't let him fill his water bottle, to carry it through 100 degree heat in the Utah desert. I would have beaten the fancy pants guide to a bloody wreck in the desert, then stole his emergency water and tied him to a tree letting the red ants bite him until he was screaming for mercy. The guides are allegedly trained in wilderness medicine??? What part of severe dehydration did they miss?? The complete confusion marked by a swollen mouth and tongue? I hope the family sues for millions and wins. Walking with an empty water bottle in the desert doesn't make you more in tune with nature, it ensures a place at the dinner table for the Darwin awards. The participants are just as stupid as the guides in this case.

As they say beware the power of stupid people in small groups.


I would have filled the bottle. Just in case.

So people that supposedly know better, did not do what they should have.
And a person(Actually multiple people) was dumb enough to go along with it.

So i would say manslaughter charges would be good.

But by no means is a lawsuit justified.
The guy was dumb enough to go along with it.

[Dick]

Even allowing for some "sensationalism" in a piece of journalism, and a signature on a waiver, it is hard for me to see where the participant is at fault:

1. Leaders refused (or at least didn't offer) water because they did not want to spoil a "character-bullding experience." Since when does a "character-buliding experience" trump a human life?

2. On the second day, he had cramps, slurred speech, hallucinations, and went 10 hours without water, then died. Signature or not, is the cost of the course ($3K+) and its "successful" completion more important to the leader than the welfare of the participant?

3. The participant "did not read course materials, may have withheld health information and may have eaten too heavily before leaving River Vale, N.J., for the grueling course." How is this relevant? Regardless of what he may had or had not eaten, symptoms are symptoms.

4. "Mr. Buschow expressly assumed the risk of serious injury or death prior to participating." It is common in many guided ventures to assume liability, but should that include the intentional withholding of treatment in the face of serious symptoms?
The mantra: "Know more, carry less." "Know more" MUST include guides knowing when participants have had enough and are in a dangerous condition.

5."The course is intended to push people 'past those false limits your mind has set for your body.'" Does a "false limit" include advanced symptoms of dehydration?

6. The organization said he was "Deemed fit to participate." Putting aside the earlier contention that he did not read course materials and MAY have witheld health info, and MAY have eaten poorly prior to the trip (should they have declared him "fit"?), how is this even relevant? Lots of people in good condition get into trouble.

7. Other campers' reactions (obtained by Associated press): "While cheerful, encouraging and coherent at times, he was a man in deep trouble hours before he collapsed....""Every time (Buschow) would fall or lie down, it took a huge amount of effort to pick him back up. His speech was thick and his mouth swollen...""Every time he continued, he'd rush ahead, often in the wrong direction and so exhausting himself even more...""Buschow was suffering from leg cramps about 2:30 p.m. and said he was feeling 'bad.'""During a break, he mistook a tree for a person and said, 'There she is....""This was the first point at which I became concerned knowing that delirium happens when dehydration becomes severe," a camper wrote. Buschow "also asked if there was much air traffic that went through here, and asked if anyone had a signal mirror."

How many red flags are needed to know that this was a person in serious trouble???? Regardless of whether he said he could or could not go on, a trained professional would have (should have) recognized the symptoms. It is unreasonable to expect that each client will have "strength beyond their conceived limits."

8. Buschow's death was caused by dehydration and electrolyte imbalance.

9. If the school's owner believed they were in the right, why only questions by email?

Unfortunately, though circumstances were different, this one hits a little close to home for me. Judgeh got it right. I'm stunned.

Dick

[hillman1]

I drink alot of water when I hike. More than anyone I know. Not uncommon for me to put down 3-4 100oz camelbacks on an average day. I would have filled my water bottle and said too bad. It's not like they were in a pass/fail course. Just walking in the desert for 12 hours is tough enough. No water is out of control. I've seen the literature from Boulder survival school. They sent it to me when I was in to the nature and awareness part of my life. Thier courses are a joke. They are suited for office types that want to go play outdoors for awhile, and they try to push them to a point so that they can go back to thier cubicles and talk about how enlightened they have become through thier nature experience. Forcing people to hike without water baffles me...for any reason. The guides are responsible for this one, they should have recognized the problem and remedied the situation. Even elite military forces get to drink water during training, why expect this guy to go without.

[nutmeg creeker]

That whole scenario is an outrage. It's one thing to run a program to build endurance and to develop survival skills when things go wrong. Even a healthy bit of simulation is tolerable. But this is similar to teaching someone to drive and knowingly and intentionally failing to take preemptive actions when a crash is imminent. The argument that clients pay to expose themselves to high risk does not render the operators immune to criminal charges and civil liability. They should be prosecuted AND sued.

[Adirondack_hunter]

Outrageous as it is as well as sad, this guy deserved what he got and any lawsuit should be dismissed. Should your family be a ble to sue due to your "own" stupidity. Think about the trips to Everest and the deaths that occur there.
Natural selection is great! I bet things don't turn our as the family hopes they will.....with a big monitary settlement!!!! I bet the family jumps on the new-aged bandwagon and tries to enact new legislation if things go sour for them.

This is NOT why we license our guides here in NY. We don't license them because they are intelligent and to guarantee this sort of thing would never happen. We license them to protect the state. That is it.

[Neil]

this guy deserved what he got

He deserved to die?

Would you care to expand on that?

[Little Rickie]

[QUOTE=Adirondack_hunter;67046]Outrageous as it is as well as sad, this guy deserved what he got

He said he could not go on and asked for water.

He wasn't stupid, he reached his limit, asked for help and was denied.

He didn't trip and hit his head on a rock or fall out of a tree. This was not a random accident. He was sick!

The guides didn't help. They are paid to be in that position and had the responsibility to prevent this from happening, thats why this is a guided program.

If he ran off on his own to do this he would have deserves it.

The guides were stupid, poorly trained or neglent.

[redhawk]

[QUOTE=Little Rickie;67061]

Outrageous as it is as well as sad, this guy deserved what he got

He said he could not go on and asked for water.

He wasn't stupid, he reached his limit, asked for help and was denied.

He didn't trip and hit his head on a rock or fall out of a tree. This was not a random accident. He was sick!

The guides didn't help. They are paid to be in that position and had the responsibility to prevent this from happening, thats why this is a guided program.

If he ran off on his own to do this he would have deserves it.

The guides were stupid, poorly trained or neglent.

Actually elitest and arrogant would be the proper description.

[Hobbitling]

that which does not kill you makes you stronger,.... except when it kills you.