Energy and carbon.

[backwoodsman]

And here I always thought Big Macs came from cheap beef fed from deforested Amazonian Basin lands. Having learned they are made from old tires makes me feel much better about my environmental footprint.

The extra toilet flushing blows that theory.

[DRIFTER]

..........Caught this about veggie oil on AOL News...

Fuel's Rise Fuels Rise in Grease Thefts

...........SAN FRANCISCO (May 20) - A few years ago, drums of used french fry grease were only of interest to a small network of underground biofuel brewers, who would use the slimy oil to power their souped-up antique Mercedes.

..........Now, restaurants from Berkeley, Calif., to Sedgwick, Kan., are reporting thefts of old cooking oil worth thousands of dollars by rustlers who are refining it into barrels of biofuel in backyard stills.

"It's like a war zone going on right now over grease," said David Levenson, who owns a grease hauling business in San Francisco's Mission District. "We're seeing more and more people stealing grease because it lets them stay away from the pump, but it's hurting our bottom line."

Levenson, who converted the engine in his '83 Mercedes to run on straight canola oil, has built up contracts to collect the liquid leftovers from 400 restaurants in the last two years.

Last week when his pump truck arrived at Thee Parkside, a dive bar known for its chili-cheese fries, his driver found someone had already helped himself to their barrel of yellow oil.

[chairrock]

Carbon Farming with Trees

This is very interesting,maybe they should use the aspens to make biofuel too........

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D90QMD300&show_article=1&catnum=0

[Hobbitling]

we've got a big invasive aspen problem here in the Albany Pine Bush. Those things are really hard to eradicate.
If you feel like girdling some aspen, I'm sure they could use volunteers.

[1894]

Hobbit , why do you call them invasive ? From a quick google , it seems that they are just the first trees to jump into a fire or clear cut area that take hold and prosper. Seems nature will decide when it is time to replace them.

[Little Rickie]

..........Caught this about veggie oil on AOL News...

Fuel's Rise Fuels Rise in Grease Thefts

...........SAN FRANCISCO (May 20) - A few years ago, drums of used french fry grease were only of interest to a small network of underground biofuel brewers, who would use the slimy oil to power their souped-up antique Mercedes.

..........Now, restaurants from Berkeley, Calif., to Sedgwick, Kan., are reporting thefts of old cooking oil worth thousands of dollars by rustlers who are refining it into barrels of biofuel in backyard stills.

"It's like a war zone going on right now over grease," said David Levenson, who owns a grease hauling business in San Francisco's Mission District. "We're seeing more and more people stealing grease because it lets them stay away from the pump, but it's hurting our bottom line."

Levenson, who converted the engine in his '83 Mercedes to run on straight canola oil, has built up contracts to collect the liquid leftovers from 400 restaurants in the last two years.

Last week when his pump truck arrived at Thee Parkside, a dive bar known for its chili-cheese fries, his driver found someone had already helped himself to their barrel of yellow oil.

Can anyone find a source that can tell us how much plant oil is produced in the US and what is it's potential if we directed our cultivation toward increasing it?

F the corn lobby!

[redhawk]

Can anyone find a source that can tell us how much plant oil is produced in the US and what is it's potential if we directed our cultivation toward increasing it?

F the corn lobby!

I'm in vague mode here, using memory to repeat something I saw on the news or in the newspaper in the last month or so.

It seems that as far as bio-fuels were concerned, what could be used to distill/refine them was defined by Congress and it was more exclusive then it was inclusive. probably another one of those deals where the bill was written by lobbyists for the industry, like the prescription drug bill was. It also set a date by which all gasoline MUST contain a specified amount of ethanol.

If I remember correctly as a result of the rising fuel prices, a bill is coming up that will allow more products, including wood pulp waste of which there is plenty to be used to distill ethanol and the deadline for the ethanol percentage in gasoline is going to be either dropped or made much later.

Hawk

[DuctTape]

IIRC, any alternative to petroleum based fuels that involve combusting a form of carbon (like bio-diesel or ethanol) have a negative environmental effect. In other words we would be replacing one environmental problem with another. The issue as I see it is the use of the internal combustion engine burning carbon based fuels regardless of their source.

[colden46]

IIRC, any alternative to petroleum based fuels that involve combusting a form of carbon (like bio-diesel or ethanol) have a negative environmental effect. In other words we would be replacing one environmental problem with another. The issue as I see it is the use of the internal combustion engine burning carbon based fuels regardless of their source.

This is not true, at least regarding carbon emissions. Yes, burning ethanol or biodiesel releases CO2, just like burning fossil fuels does. However, the carbon that is released when burning bio fuels is carbon that was absorbed from the atmosphere during the life of the plant. So burning ethanol or biodiesel is carbon neutral (ignoring, of course, any petroleum that may be used by the machinery used to grow the plants, the distilling process, fertilizer production, etc).

Burning fossil fuels releases carbon that has been stored underground for thousands or millions of years, and so it results in a net release of carbon into the atmosphere. That is, at least on the time scale we're interested in -- obviously the plants that turned into oil removed the carbon from the atmosphere when they grew, but that was eons ago and so it isn't very relevant to our current situation.

It's the same thing as breathing -- humans exhale billions of tons of CO2 every year. But the CO2 we exhale comes from the plants that we eat (and the animals, which ate the plants), and those plants ultimately removed that carbon from the atmosphere while they were growing. So if somebody tells you to stop breathing to save the environment, they don't know what they're talking about.

[colden46]

Can anyone find a source that can tell us how much plant oil is produced in the US and what is it's potential if we directed our cultivation toward increasing it?

If you believe Wikipedia:

As of 2000, the United States was producing in excess of 11 billion liters of waste vegetable oil annually, mainly from industrial deep fryers in potato processing plants, snack food factories and fast food restaurants. If all those 11 billion liters could be collected and used to replace the energetically equivalent amount of petroleum (an ideal case), almost 1% of US oil consumption could be offset. However, use of waste vegetable oil as a fuel competes with some already established uses.

No idea how much more could be grown if we wanted to, presumably a lot. At the same time, presumably we could grow a lot more corn if we wanted to for ethanol, and that has still had an effect on food prices.

[backwoodsman]

Interesting posts colden,corn vs. soybean yields per acre are about 4 to 1 in favor of corn.Of course it can vary.There's also alot more expense in growing corn.

[DRIFTER]

.........Would anyone have any experience with coal for home heating. I have a propane furnace in my home, but tried wood heat last year and found it to be messy and alot of work! I was thinking of buying a coal stove with a self feed hopper. These are the features;


Standard Features Optional Features
Exclusive Auto Heat Control
Low profile
265 CFM air distributions blowers
Dual control center

Air Fan Speed Control
Alaska Clean Glass System
Domestic hot water coils
Brass sunburst
Soapstone side panels
Power inverter
Thermostat
Direct Vent
Power Vent
Alaska Vent
Fan limit switch (standard on model 140)


The larger stove, a monster, provides 170,000 btu's. I also read something about the differences between anthracite and bituminous coal, the first being preferable although I'm not sure if its readily available.....Any thoughts on the subject would be appreciated.

[DuctTape]

This is not true, at least regarding carbon emissions. Yes, burning ethanol or biodiesel releases CO2, just like burning fossil fuels does. However, the carbon that is released when burning bio fuels is carbon that was absorbed from the atmosphere during the life of the plant. So burning ethanol or biodiesel is carbon neutral (ignoring, of course, any petroleum that may be used by the machinery used to grow the plants, the distilling process, fertilizer production, etc).

Burning fossil fuels releases carbon that has been stored underground for thousands or millions of years, and so it results in a net release of carbon into the atmosphere. That is, at least on the time scale we're interested in -- obviously the plants that turned into oil removed the carbon from the atmosphere when they grew, but that was eons ago and so it isn't very relevant to our current situation.

It's the same thing as breathing -- humans exhale billions of tons of CO2 every year. But the CO2 we exhale comes from the plants that we eat (and the animals, which ate the plants), and those plants ultimately removed that carbon from the atmosphere while they were growing. So if somebody tells you to stop breathing to save the environment, they don't know what they're talking about.

My point was not about CO2 emissions it has to do with the environmental impact as a whole. The large usage of land to grow enough of any plant material to consume as a fuel source will become the next environmental disaster. Perhaps worse. Do the math.

[colden46]

My point was not about CO2 emissions it has to do with the environmental impact as a whole. The large usage of land to grow enough of any plant material to consume as a fuel source will become the next environmental disaster. Perhaps worse. Do the math.

Sorry, I assumed you were referring to CO2 emissions since you mentioned engines "burning carbon based fuels". I apologize for the confusion

I agree with you about trading one problem for another. There are no easy answers.

[chairrock]

That all make sense now. I'm glad my fuel tax dollars go directly towards road construction and maintenance. I feel so much better now.

This wont help , but it explains how to do it not.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...9ng&refer=home