APA approves Tupper Resort

[Col. Forbin]

I assumed you used your ATV in a way that negatively affects the environment because you listed it among an enormous list of recreational activities that you supposedly do in the Adirondacks - many of which are seemingly at odds with each other.

I'm sure you've heard this little idiom about assuming and it making an ass of you?

And you said that everybody has a different idea and definition of "protecting the park" - and I pointed out that conservationists / environmentalists wanted to protect the park in it's purest sense of the word. Their idea of protecting the park isn't to lock down access to it for their recreational activities, many of which have adverse effects on the environment. Their idea of protecting the park is to actually protect the park. It's more about the park and it's forests and streams and wildlife and a lot less about themselves.

How's this for "seemingly at odds"... my dad is a hunter. Who is also a veterinarian. Get it? It might seem at odds, but the ethos is one and the same-- what is best for the preservation of animal life. As in, the GREATER scope of animal life, not just one deer or one hamster. Much the same can be said for TRUE conservationists, the ones who are educated as such. You know, like the guys who went to Paul Smiths, like several in this thread have already said they did, or others who went to ESF at Syracuse... You know, people who have made it their life's pursuit to become formally educated in said matters in order to be able to personally effect change in the environment that they so love and consistently, day in, day out live in. Unlike yourself, armchair quarterbacking from Westchester.

Lets see. I'm 44 years old now and I've loved the Adirondacks since I was about 16. ... I use nearly ALL my vacation time and long weekends and personal days to go camping somewhere in the Adirondack backcountry all year long. If it weren't for my new love of alpine skiing I would have already been backpacking up there a few times this winter. A few years ago I purchased a tripping canoe and I have done canoe camping trips to the Oswegatchie River, the Bog River Flow and Lows Lake, Bog Lake, Lake Lila, Little Tupper Lake and Rock Pond. I think I'll check out Cedar River and Cedar Lake next.

So i figure I have at least 10 years on you as far as my enjoyment of wild uncharted Adirondack 'backcountry', been skiing both alpine and nordic since I was about 2, maybe 2 and a half. Did a week and a half canoe camping trip at the age of 15 with the DEC Conservation camp that encompassed a number of mountains, lakes ponds and streams, Raquette and Forked Lakes figuring centrally among them. Let me assure you that my dedication and devotion to this area is strong and true, and was ingrained in me from a very early age, Dad having served on the board of directors for the Lake George Association, among other groups with a vested interest in preserving what special resources we had here at the time. This isn't a weekend, vacation, or hobby pursuit, let me assure you, it is REAL LIFE.

But I ALSO like the city and have a pretty good job down here in civilization, so this is where I live. I live and work in civilization where it's easier to live and work and I spend most of my free time enjoying the natural world and relaxing in the Adirondack backcountry. I think about retiring up there but I wouldn't have trees removed to have a house built specifically for me - I'd buy one that is already there.

This is where you made a bad move, Mister Man. Who exactly do you think you are that you can refer to yourself as one of the 'civilized'? What exactly are we then? The great unwashed masses? This just smacks of superiority and condescension as if you are by default a much wiser and more worthy individual, and hold a greater claim to our backyard, simply because you have the better sense to live in a concrete jungle? Please. Get over yourself.

We simple rubes wouldn't know where to go or what to do without you and your downstate 'civilized folk' to guide us by the hand every step of the way?

In a nutshell I just believe that if you opt to live in the Adirondacks you should accept it's regulations and restrictions and not bemoan them.

YEAH ME TOO. So why don't you start taking your own damned advice and let it be? It's regulations and restrictions are still fully in place, no one has changed that one iota.

So I don't see myself as the one rocking the boat here.

Funny how perspective changes interpretation, because thats about ALL I see you doing here. I've been reading this forum for a while, and have been able to do so without feeling the need to rebut anything, simply because the fair majority of posters and posts here are generally accurate and undeserving of my ire, but you sir, have stirred the sleeping beast.

I have no beef with the locals of the Adirondacks. I just wished they valued their back yard the way I valued their back yard. It's possible that I don't consider their hardships enough, but isn't it also possible that they take what they have for granted? Or that it is a unique area and as such "outsider's" opinions should be considered more without the apparent resentment?

"I don't think they're dumb, I just think I'm much smarter."

Buddy, you ARE an outsider, no matter how much you lament the fact, it isnt going to change matters that you're a city-dweller, and as such, you DO NOT understand the area, NOR WILL YOU EVER. Immersion is the only way, brother.

these guys have a beer drop by plane there every year and it's not too far from IP lands, and so I'm a little scared at what I'd find and turned off to it.

I'd stay away from those areas too, they sound like too much fun for a guy like you, I don't think you'd be able to hang with those Gooley boys. Can't run with the big dogs if you're stuck on the porch, know what I mean?

I think I'll check out Cedar River and Cedar Lake next.

I know a great camp on the Cedar River, also part of the Gooley club. That's where the old men go to hunt, so they don't have to traipse AS MANY MILES through the woods(oh, my bad, backcountry) to go HUNTING and FISHING.



Anywho, I'm done here, back to building boats. See you all in the spring!

[Neil]

This thread isn't about Forest Dweller. It's main theme is about the proposed development in Tupper Lake.

There are no problems at all with debating FD's ideas but attacking people personally, no matter what your opinion of them may be, is strictly against the forum rules.

[forest dweller]

I believe this is the type of modern convenience that areas like Tupper are sorely lacking, and I for one believe that we should move to immediately rectify this obvious oversight on the part of those truly backward mountain folk who reside there.

I didn't say that or anything remotely like that despite the fact that a few of you want to interpret what I said that way.

Having said that, it is primarily the locals who think this is just grand and it is the "outsiders" who love the park and are not happy about this.

Key word; primarily.

There are people in Maine (and outside of Maine) that would like to see a Maine Woods National Park created on some of the more exceptional undeveloped natural areas of northern Maine - and it's probably a great idea - but guess which group of people is it's largest opposition? Probably because they irrationally fear that even though things are not going well for them economically they would manage to get even worse with a national park in their back yard.

[Col. Forbin]

This thread isn't about Forest Dweller. It's main theme is about the proposed development in Tupper Lake.

There are no problems at all with debating FD's ideas but attacking people personally, no matter what your opinion of them may be, is strictly against the forum rules.

I meant no harm here, but when someone starts insinuating that I am a backward yokel with no common sense I bristle a bit and feel obligated to point out the factual and/or logical fallacies that they have presented.

Far and away everyone else's opinions represented here, whether I agree with them or not, have been generally rational and from an educated point of view, which I cannot say for FD's posts. His histrionics and generally inflammatory choice of language, while appearing to be constructive, smacks of nothing but hubris and elitism.

If you're unhappy with how I've chosen to defend the ADK way of life, it's people and their decisions regarding their own homeland, by all means feel free to revoke my posting privileges, and I can go back to lurking like I did in years past.

[Pumpkin QAAD]

"We have our little air holes in the cities, which we call parks, and we have some sections of the west roped off by law which the east is welcome to roam over if it can pay the carfare to them. But it has remained for New York State to set aside more than a tithe of its total area where men and women can seek sanctuary from cities and heat and the everlasting press of things. And New York State has done more. She has not only offered her mountains and lakes and woods to the tired student from Ithaca, the tired philosopher from the Hub, the tired businessman from everywhere, but she has made trails through the mountains, has stocked the streams and lakes, and is doing her best to preserve the forest. The citizens of the State pay for this, and anybody can enjoy their gift for a thank-you. All that they request is care in the enjoyment. Great care is the least return that we can make."
T. Morris Longstreth

[Col. Forbin]

"I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived"

Henry David Thoreau

[forest dweller]

I apologize to anybody who has been offended by what I wrote.

But on my behalf I believe that a few of you have made quite a "leap" and have interpreted what I meant and wrote much differently from what I actually meant and wrote. And I'm a little offended by that because it seems "accusatory" and I'm trying to keep my "nose clean" here while discussing something I feel very passionate about.

Most of us have strong opinions on this and many of us fall on opposite sides. It has the potential to get ugly as a result.

I did not mean to offend locals of the Adirondacks but I think it's fair to say that many people who live inside the blue line value the Adirondacks differently than people that love the Adirondacks and happen to live outside the blue line. Then there are the vast majority of people who could probably care less either way.

I just wish there was a way that the people of Tupper Lake could find a way to get good jobs that didn't require a somewhat major development. And I guess what makes me upset is that I do believe there are other ways to satisfy the needs and desires of everyone. It probably requires money but so does this.

Thank you to everyone who has given me positive feedback - a few people in here have made me wonder if I am really that horrible but you guys have reassured me that I'm not that bad or insane!

[Commissionpoint]

You guys have been busy it seems. How about we get talking about Tupper Lake again?

I'm a big supporter of rail restoration in the park and the line through Tupper is under consideration for restoration. Access by rail from Utica would be good for Big Tupper I think. That in turn could help get some of the condo/services phase of the Adirondack Club off the ground. I know rail projects have been discussed at some length by some of our members in the past, but I thought that it also applied to the discussion on Tupper as well.

http://nextstoptupperlake.org/adirondack-on-track-partnership

[Col. Forbin]

Thank you to everyone who has given me positive feedback - a few people in here have made me wonder if I am really that horrible but you guys have reassured me that I'm not that bad or insane!

I'm not attempting to vilify you, or anyone else, in any way. I just think you have a somewhat skewed perspective on the situation and have assumed lordship over it in some way for whatever reason. You do seem to care an awful lot for the Park, but your characterization and understanding of its' people leaves something to be desired.

Perhaps an extended sojourn into the great wilds would do you good. Tell REI to shove off and get a summer job at the Mountaineer, I suspect you would get a bit more perspective from that vantage point.

Placid is a love/hate thing for a lot of us, as it is by far one of the single most 'developed' areas inside the line, albeit out of necessity for the Olympic games, but still-- it's generally an affront to the 'spirit' of the Park. But damn, is it a good time! On the grand scale, Placid is just a little podunk town in the sticks, but it's the one central area that draws a crowd from all over the park, and outside of it, because people know that there's stuff to do there, jobs to be found there, fun to be had there.

Tupper stands to benefit from the same ancillary benefits, as well as the associated 'evils', only time will tell which way the pendulum will ultimately swing.

[Col. Forbin]

You guys have been busy it seems. How about we get talking about Tupper Lake again?

I'm a big supporter of rail restoration in the park and the line through Tupper is under consideration for restoration. Access by rail from Utica would be good for Big Tupper I think. That in turn could help get some of the condo/services phase of the Adirondack Club off the ground. I know rail projects have been discussed at some length by some of our members in the past, but I thought that it also applied to the discussion on Tupper as well.

http://nextstoptupperlake.org/adiron...ck-partnership

Glad you brought that up, actually. I'm a big fan of the Amtrak service that runs from Penn Station to Montreal, super cheap fare, decent travel time, and it allows me to really take in a lot of scenery that I would otherwise miss while driving. I was even able to stow my Wee Lassie canoe in an overhead bin! The only issue I see is that from some of the more remote stations, a shuttle service might be essential.

[forest dweller]

Perhaps an extended sojourn into the great wilds would do you good. Tell REI to shove off and get a summer job at the Mountaineer, I suspect you would get a bit more perspective from that vantage point.

Who said I worked at REI? I was deliberately trying to be very vague about which recreational equipment store I worked for!

But I couldn't do what you suggest because for one thing it's not my primary rent paying gig - my main gig is solid and stable and I'll never leave it!

But more importantly, if I DID work at REI I wouldn't leave that either - I've heard they give their employees 50% off all REI brand clothing and equipment, 30% off all name brand equipment, and access to "pro deals" on most major brands, which is usually about 50% off MSRP! I'd be insane to leave there if I worked there!

[Col. Forbin]

Who said I worked at REI? I was deliberately trying to be very vague about which recreational equipment store I worked for!

You must be new to the internets. =P

Viewing post history is fun!

[geogymn]

"I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived"

Henry David Thoreau

"I WISH TO SPEAK a word for nature, for absolute Freedom and Wildness, as contrasted with a freedom and Culture merely civil, — to regard man as an inhabitant, or a part and parcel of Nature, rather than a member of society. I wish to make an extreme statement, if so I may make a emphatic one, for there are enough champions of civilization;" Henry T.

Do we have enough champions of nature? Me

"Something vast and old is vanishing and our rage should mirror that loss." Jack Turner

[Pumpkin QAAD]

If anything hopefully Tupper Lake learns from Lake George and creates the dozen or so groups it'll take to slow the degradation of the lake and surrounding waters from the thousands of extra users.

AND the Adirondack Park is everyone's backyard not any one individuals regardless of where you live or work or how entitled you feel you are.


Yes I am a broken record.

[Col. Forbin]

If anything hopefully Tupper Lake learns from Lake George and creates the dozen or so groups it'll take to slow the degradation of the lake and surrounding waters from the thousands of extra users.

To be perfectly honest, the only group Lake George needs and has ever needed is the LGA. The WaterKeeper and his ilk are nothing more than a bunch of rabblerousers who have no place interjecting their baseless opinions on the matter. I feel confident that the citizens of the Tupper Lake region have the mental fortitude and common sense to do what is right for their community, and address their errors in a timely fashion, should they encounter difficulty.