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Old 04-24-2008, 02:43 PM   #1
AdRegion
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Found: High Peaks Maps

I found this kinda strange page with maps and was wondering what everyone thought:

Adirondack High Peaks Wilderness Area Maps

Quote:
These maps were obtained from the NYS DEC.

They show the location of lean-tos and campsites, including existing, proposed, and those to be removed. I was told that the anticipated date of completion of the project is the spring of 2009.

Upon completion, the camping restrictions in the South Meadows Flowed Lands Corridor will go into effect. When that happens, camping in the SMFLC will be limited to campsites and lean-tos. You will no longer be able to set up camp under the general rules (below 3500-ft, and 150-ft from a trail or water).
I've not seen these before and some of the proposed changes are worth a think.
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Old 04-24-2008, 07:37 PM   #2
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Someone on ADKhighPeaks was looking for these maps so I gave them link but gave you the credit (or will it end up being a debit?)

I looked through them and I didn't see any lean-tos to be removed. I did notice some camp sites in places I didn't know there were campsites.

I wonder what is behind the Flowed-Lands South Meadow Corridor restriction on camping to go into effect next summer. I recently switched to hammock camping and one of the advantages is not being limited to level ground. In fact, it is better to have a protruding boulder underneath the hammock on which to set my equipment so if it rains it won't get wet from ground water.

The other advantage is that I can stop whenever I'm tired (assuming camping is not otherwise restricted) and set up camp. No need to stop at a designated site if I am not tired, and no need to push on to one if I am tired.

Does anybody know what the fine will be for camping outside a designated site? I'm assuming it would be the same for camping over 3500 feet now but I have no idea what that is.
 
Old 04-24-2008, 08:04 PM   #3
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A hammock tent is still a tent, and is subject to the same restrictions as ground tents. The intent of DEC's regulation is to contain the human footprint, so to speak. Even if you're sleeping in a hammock tent, you're still going to be wandering around the campsite (cooking, peeing, looking for those perfectly spaced trees for the hammock) so the potential for trampling the ground is the same no matter what kind of tent you're using. The state doesn't award brownie points for people who use hammock tents... no more than for people who have to drive long distances to get to the High Peaks.
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Old 04-24-2008, 09:14 PM   #4
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I'm thankful they aren't removing any lean-to's, but they're scaling back on the campsites in general and that's going to drive up competition for the remaining campsites and lean-to's.

I think everyone knew South Meadows was on the chopping block (I heard a rumor they were gonna close the whole place off), so the -13 campsites didn't surprise me. People will simply camp in their cars.

I'm kinda confused about one site however (looking at the overall map). I see the new campsite at Skylight Brook, which has always been informal, so this isn't so surprising, but theres one to the northwest and I can't figure out where that is. The only spot I could think of is Lower Twin Brook, but thats private land, and the trail doesn't goto state land until Skylight brook. So people can't trespass in order to get to the new site, and if they follow the trail all the way though, theres a campsite right there anyways. Am I the only one seeing this, or should I put up a picture of where I'm trying to describe?
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Last edited by Tuchov; 04-24-2008 at 09:15 PM.. Reason: Trying to describe in detail where I'm looking at
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Old 04-24-2008, 09:52 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by wildriver View Post
A hammock tent is still a tent, and is subject to the same restrictions as ground tents. The intent of DEC's regulation is to contain the human footprint, so to speak. Even if you're sleeping in a hammock tent, you're still going to be wandering around the campsite (cooking, peeing, looking for those perfectly spaced trees for the hammock) so the potential for trampling the ground is the same no matter what kind of tent you're using. The state doesn't award brownie points for people who use hammock tents... no more than for people who have to drive long distances to get to the High Peaks.

so i'll be fined the same as if I put up a tent. O.K. - but what's the fine? I have a whole year to save up, but I need to know the amount so I can budget accordingly.
 
Old 04-25-2008, 09:12 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timetohike View Post
so i'll be fined the same as if I put up a tent. O.K. - but what's the fine? I have a whole year to save up, but I need to know the amount so I can budget accordingly.


That's not even close to being funny.

It also suggests violating regulations which I believe is against forum rules.

It's attitudes like that that results in the regulations that are enforced on all.

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Old 04-25-2008, 01:26 PM   #7
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Regarding Skylight Brook

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuchov View Post
I'm kinda confused about one site however (looking at the overall map). I see the new campsite at Skylight Brook, which has always been informal, so this isn't so surprising, but theres one to the northwest and I can't figure out where that is. The only spot I could think of is Lower Twin Brook, but thats private land, and the trail doesn't goto state land until Skylight brook. So people can't trespass in order to get to the new site, and if they follow the trail all the way though, theres a campsite right there anyways. Am I the only one seeing this, or should I put up a picture of where I'm trying to describe?
Part of the upcoming Finch Pruyn purchase will be land in the Twin Brooks area, so in the future most of the route to Allen will be state land. Something to look forward to.
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Old 04-25-2008, 02:04 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timetohike View Post
so i'll be fined the same as if I put up a tent. O.K. - but what's the fine? I have a whole year to save up, but I need to know the amount so I can budget accordingly.
Who cares what the fine is if everyone obeys the rules? Reminds me of an argument I've heard made by ATV riders riding illegally. "With the thousands of dollars I have invested in ATVs and transport, if I get caught then a silly fine is not even noticeable in a weekend of fun".

If I were to come across an illegal site I'd first attempt to politely explain the situation. Then I'd record the position, take a photograph, get a name if possible (while avoiding confrontation as much as possible), and quickly proceed to the nearest ranger I could find. That's how I protect the environment and my future rights at the same time. It wouldn't be the first time I've reported violators.
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Old 04-25-2008, 04:17 PM   #9
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Old 04-25-2008, 04:24 PM   #10
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+1
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Old 04-25-2008, 06:19 PM   #11
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Quote:
That's exactly how I type out all of my posts.
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Old 04-25-2008, 06:23 PM   #12
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Me too and it gave me a headache last Sunday! You know, the day after my birthday!
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Old 04-25-2008, 06:57 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil View Post
That's exactly how I type out all of my posts.
And all this time I thought you never used your head.

Go figure.
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Old 04-25-2008, 08:34 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wldrns View Post
Who cares what the fine is if everyone obeys the rules? If I were to come across an illegal site I'd first attempt to politely explain the situation. Then I'd record the position, take a photograph, get a name if possible (while avoiding confrontation as much as possible), and quickly proceed to the nearest ranger I could find. That's how I protect the environment and my future rights at the same time. It wouldn't be the first time I've reported violators.
I'd get DNA as well. In this day and age photos can be manipulated quite easily. But if you get DNA you'd have the leg up on the violator.

Forget confrontation, place them under citizens arrest. We have liberal laws in NYS...

New York State Consolidated Laws hold that:

Any person may arrest another person (a) for a felony when the latter has in fact committed such felony, and (b) for any offense when the latter has in fact committed such offense in his presence. (N.Y.C.L. 140.30).

A person may arrest another person for an offenseat any hour of any day or night. 2. Such person must inform the person whom he is arresting of the reason for such arrest unless he encounters physical resistance, flight or other factors rendering such procedure impractical. 3. In order to effect such an arrest, such person may use such physical force as is justifiable pursuant to subdivision four of section 35.30 of the penal law. (N.Y.C.L. 140.35).

BTW do you ticket cars at the National Forest demonstration fee sites? I never actually paid a demonstration fee yet, cause if you pay it, they mark it down as 100% paid. Then we all HAVE to pay the fee in a few years when it's made permanent. In NH they throw the fine out (as personally witnessed by myself 3x), in Colorado they made it illegal. It would be great if you were taking photos of the cars though, then there would be a higher percentage of non payers and the demonstration would be demonstrated to be the fleecing it is.
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Old 04-25-2008, 08:41 PM   #15
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Good point about the manipulable jpgs.

I'm wondering how you would get the DNA sample. ( lot's of possible speculation unfit for this forum)

The day I place someone under citizens arrest while I'm out hiking will be a day to remember for sure.

Can a Canadian place an American under citizen's arrest on US soil?

Can a Canadian place an American under citizen's arrest on an internet forum?
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Old 04-25-2008, 09:51 PM   #16
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Apparently no one can answer the question – “What is the fine for camping someplace other than a designated campsite in the Flowed Lands South Meadow Corridor?” Technically, the answer is “there is no fine because the restriction is not yet in effect.”

But when the restriction does go into effect, a person found guilty of violating the regulations “shall be guilty of a violation, and, upon conviction, shall be punished by a fine of not more than two hundred fifty dollars, or by imprisonment for not more than fifteen days, or by both such fine and imprisonment, and in addition thereto shall be liable to a civil penalty of not less than ten nor more than one hundred dollars.”

Note – it is a “violation” and not a misdemeanor or felony. So I’d be cautious about effectuating a citizen’s arrest for a violation. Moreover, if for any reason the violator is found not guilty, then you got one hell of a false arrest lawsuit aimed between your eyes.

By the way, that’s the same fine for not signing a trail register.

It is also the same fine for violating the number one violation that takes most of the time and attention of rangers in the HPWA. Do you know what it is? Do you know the violation for which the highest number of appearance tickets have been issued in the HPWA over the last 3 years?

Here’s a hint. You can find more than a hundred pictures of that number one violation just on this website alone. I wonder if anyone has run to the ranger station with those pictures to report the violators.

Some may think it is trivial. But it takes a lot of tax dollars to pay highly trained rangers to spend the majority of their enforcement resources on that numero uno violation.

Why oh why don't our schools teach critical thinking....
 
Old 04-25-2008, 10:39 PM   #17
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Our schools are too busy dealing with all sorts of bizarre social pathologies to even consider teaching critical thinking.

Anyway, the suspense is killing me. What is that number one violation?
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Old 04-25-2008, 10:55 PM   #18
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Our schools are too busy dealing with all sorts of bizarre social pathologies to even consider teaching critical thinking.

Anyway, the suspense is killing me. What is that number one violation?
It is a rule that I have broken myself (but I've searched my postings on here to eliminate the evidence, the only pic left is before the rule wnet into effect)

As reported by Adirondac Magazine:

What the ranger who writes more tickets than any other in the High Peaks has had the most trouble with is the leash law. "That's the only regulation that some people have rebelled against," Giglento says. There are those who feel an essential element of their wilderness hiking experience is to let the pup run free. That's great for them, but not necessarily for other hikers. Even the most placid dog can become unpredictable around a lot of other people in unmarked territory. Dog fights, dog bites, lost dogs, and dogs without owners have become a constant headache for the rangers and a safety issue on the trails. "I think they should just ban dogs, period," states the occasionally provocative Fish. "They're too much trouble."
 
Old 04-25-2008, 11:32 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timetohike View Post
It is a rule that I have broken myself (but I've searched my postings on here to eliminate the evidence, the only pic left is before the rule wnet into effect)

As reported by Adirondac Magazine:

What the ranger who writes more tickets than any other in the High Peaks has had the most trouble with is the leash law. "That's the only regulation that some people have rebelled against," Giglento says. There are those who feel an essential element of their wilderness hiking experience is to let the pup run free. That's great for them, but not necessarily for other hikers. Even the most placid dog can become unpredictable around a lot of other people in unmarked territory. Dog fights, dog bites, lost dogs, and dogs without owners have become a constant headache for the rangers and a safety issue on the trails. "I think they should just ban dogs, period," states the occasionally provocative Fish. "They're too much trouble."
The same could be said of people as well. Just too much trouble, ban them.

But you miss the point. No one else has asked what a fine was so they could pay it when they broke the rule.

if it was Irony as you stated in your PM to me, (then i think everyone else missed it as well and perhaps you should look up the definition or "Irony), the fact that it was "In YOUR FACE" about the regulation was extremely poor taste and not a laughing matter.

And if your excuse for doing that is to now point a finger at everyone else whom you feel violated a regulation as justification for your action, then i stand by my original comment that
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redhawk
It's attitudes like that that results in the regulations that are enforced on all.
And as I replied to you in the PM, Those of us who post here are examples, whether we want to be or not.

So be a positive one.

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Old 04-26-2008, 12:37 AM   #20
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Am I the only one who laughed at TimetoHike's fine-be-damned comment because, well, it was just plain kind of silly?
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