How much info should be shared

[Kevin]

Interesting emails arrived in my mailbox today. The first was from a concerned ADK hiker, the next from the DEC...

Originally Posted by concerned hiker

Kevin

This is to earnestly request that you remove information regarding French Louie's cave and its location from your the-boogiemen.com website. As of September 26, there are three graffiti items on the wall over Louie's bed platform. All are dated this year. There was no graffiti of any kind before you posted the map to the cave on your site.

Louie lived in the area approximately one hundred years ago. Since then, only those individuals who were truly intrigued by French Louie's life have sought out the places that he frequented. The cave is one of just a few of those sites that had remained unchanged since his time. But now that you have posted a map of its location, many uninformed and disrespectful weekend hikers can and will easily make the jaunt to the cave.

Attached is a photo of the graffiti which has resulted from your posting on the Internet. I implore you to please remove the French Louie's Cave map (and photos) from your website. When you compare the cave photos posted on your site just last year to the more recent one that is attached, I expect that you will agree that this is necessary to prevent further defacing and degradation of this Adirondack special place.

Sincerely

I did not include the photo as it's not my property to share. If this person wants they can post it in the thread. It's short names scratched into the largest wall in the cave. Two sets of names are dated 2006. Appears to be chalk or soft stone.

Originally Posted by DEC official

Dear Sir,

As [a DEC official] of the area including the West Canada Lake
Wilderness and French Louie's Cave, I am concerned that you have posted
a map showing the location of this sensitive historic resource on your
website. Because area's such as this are impossible to patrol, public
access is unobstructed by all means except the length of the hike and
the availability of information. I strongly urge you to help us protect
the cave site by removing the map of its location from your website.

From:

And now my spirited response...

Originally Posted by Kevin

Mr. X and Mr. Y,

As you can probably tell by the amout of photos on my site, I share your enthusiasm for the outdoors. However, it appears that's where our similarities end.

It was my initial impression to just ignore your emails. Not knowing either of you personally I have to give the benefit of the doubt and do the respectful thing and at least answer. It would be rude to do otherwise.

Posting poorly marked topo maps on the internet certainly does not qualify as illegal or immoral. So that aside it becomes a matter of personal ethics. I obviously do not feel that my maps offer enough clues to sensitive locations I visit, otherwise I wouldn't post them. This point must be made because you seem to feel I didn't consider this issue, otherwise you would never have contacted me.

It requires effort to wander around that area. Even knowing the exact route to take as shared by another hiker it took the 3 in my party 45 minutes from the NPT. The 2006 visitors would need to exert the same effort it took us to find the cave, map or no map.

When I read "graffiti" prior to viewing the image I pictured gang spray-painting, not a few names scratched into rock. While I would probably prefer to not see names on the wall, it's also not the worse trace someone could leave behind. It simply reeks of immaturity. Each one teach one. Find those three hikers and explain why we don't do things this way. I'm off to post this on a few forums as our ongoing online responsibility to remind internet hikers that leaving no trace includes LEAVING NO TRACE. lol

I do not believe my site to be powerful enough to make people decide to engrave their names with soft stone on the wall of the cave. "The graffiti which has resulted from your posting on the Internet" is wildly inaccurate interpretation and it's all yours to own. It would be my right to post GPS coordinates, so be grateful I don't. This is an issue that gets discussed a lot on the internet (what beta to share). Until Big Brother takes over the internet we're going to have to roll with how information moves nowadays. Word of mouth travels at the speed of light and information is no longer the property of the informed. I suggest you build a fence around all the things you love if it's so important you feel it's your right to harrass strangers on the internet and impose your sense of righteousness.

So what's next? Accusing me of causing the cut trees in the Santanonis because I posted a trip report in 2004? I think I posted a map of my Santanoni hike too. OMG!!

Thankfully it's not you who decides where the line of good taste is drawn. Let me set that line for you.

The map, the photos, and any other references made publicly to the cave will remain. We (meaning myself and the others involved in the hike that day) take great pride in preserving those things for generations to come. We will not take responsibility for other's actions as they are not our own.

This matter is not up for discussion (never was). I will only respond to acts of law, so if you feel you have grounds to press charges against me for the actions of others I'll gladly embarrass you in court. There's enough restrictions on my personal liberties that I don't welcome being bothered when acting well within the boundaries of law.

My references to you public will be anonymous. Be grateful I'm that kind.

Best wishes.

Kevin Heckeler

So has this hiking community come to a consensus on such matters, or is it still case-by-case?

[lumberzac]

I probably would not have posted a map, but might have posted pictures. There are a lot of places in the Adirondacks (mostly favorite fishing holes) that I do not openly share with everyone. I become very selective as to who I share these places with, because I know not everyone is going to show these places the respect that I would. I’d rather share it with someone I trust rather than a bunch of people I don’t know. Other things that are more common knowledge, such as herd paths up one of the high peaks, I will and do share freely. When things are in doubt as to how publicly something is known, I tend to keep it private. These are my personal feelings on the matter, as I believe there is any documented set of rules on this.

[Mavs00]

Originally Posted by stoopid

So has this hiking community come to a consensus on such matters, or is it still case-by-case?

I don't speak for any community or anyone but myself, but on a personal note. I implore you to reconsider. With all due respect.....

I FEEL YOU ARE WRONG ON THIS ONE.

Moreso, I feel eminently qualified to respond to this post. I am a sharer by nature (always have bee). I never (used to) hesitate to share things I've done or seen. I post pictures too.

Over the years, I've posted TR (with pics) to Amphitheaters, plane crashes, lost ponds, summits and various other places. For the most part, well received, but not always. I've been accused of self-promotion, list promotion, violating wilderness ethics, you name it. Hell, I even spent countless hours researching a military place crash site in the Adk's. When I placed three small flags in memory of the dead in a patriotic gesture, I was roundly accused of "littering in the back-country" .

So, do you think that I've grown a tad cynical about how casually some people can cast judgements on ME or my motivations when I post things on the internet. Particularly, when they do not know my real personality or intentions...... Ummm yeah, Just a touch

That said....... I beg you to consider taking the map of your site. I think you have every right to be proud o locating the cave, even showing pictures. I've seen em, and there're quite cool. But, the map makes it too easy for just anybody to get there. I try to never post that kind of specific info for just anyone to take.

I hope that while you were there, the spirit of the place meant something special to you. It obviously did, since you shared it with all. Unfortunately, you gave away the key at the same time. Let those that want the spirit of adventure go forth and locate it themselves, and experience the joys you did.

When you went to sell your site, you told us that you listed it on eBay for auction bid because you felt someone that would invest that much ($$), would be BEST qualified to treat and carry on the spirit of the forum. IF THAT WAS TRUE, then PLEASE afford the SAME logic and respect to the cave.

For those that wanna discover it themselves, let them invest of themselves to locate it, it should provide a measure of respect for the place that will prevent something as low-life as carving initials into a historic site.

I know we don't always agree on much, and have had feisty exchanges in the past, but I ask you...... no beg you. to remove the map and at least take some steps to protect it.

For the same reasons I outline above, I don't allow specific info or GPS to be posted here. It has nothing to do with elitism, and everything to do with protection.

Bottom line for me: Stories and pics, fine... Specific details... keep private

cross-posted: ADKHighpeaks

[Robony]

"Attached is a photo of the graffiti which has resulted from your posting on the Internet. I implore you to please remove the French Louie's Cave map (and photos) from your website. When you compare the cave photos posted on your site just last year to the more recent one that is attached, I expect that you will agree that this is necessary to prevent further defacing and degradation of this Adirondack special place."

Bravo on your response Kevin.

Exactly how does the emailer know that the "graffiti" resulted from your TR? It seems more and more these days that people are no longer accountable for their own actions. Maybe a disclaimer to the effect of "the above is not intended for ignorant, malicious, or just plain stupid people".

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Robony

Exactly how does the emailer know that the "graffiti" resulted from your TR? It seems more and more these days that people are no longer accountable for their own actions. Maybe a disclaimer to the effect of "the above is not intended for ignorant, malicious, or just plain stupid people".

I was going to post a link to an article on Leave No Trace ethics under each of the maps containing more 'sensitive' datum. It's not a compromise, it's a good idea. Probably will work that in by next week.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Mavs00

When you went to sell your site, you told us that you listed it on eBay for auction bid because you felt someone that would invest that much ($$), would be BEST qualified to treat and carry on the spirit of the forum. IF THAT WAS TRUE, then PLEASE afford the SAME logic and respect to the cave.

For those that wanna discover it themselves, let them invest of themselves to locate it, it should provide a measure of respect for the place that will prevent something as low-life as carving initials into a historic site.

Well, you lost me with the analogy... I'm not flying these people in and escorting them to the site . They still have to hike quite a ways to get there.

Tim and Zac, I don't disagree, I just don't feel the map matters as much as you think (assuming you went to the site and found it).

The way we discovered it was by chance. Val went in with the intent of finding it, but our original game-plan was to look around the entirely wrong hill! It was another hiker at the lean-to that steered us the right way. It is because of his instructions to limit exposure to the site that more detailed info isn't provided, and because of our conversation that day that made me very aware of the issue at hand.

See my above post - let's ensure those ready to make the journey understand the rules once they get there .

So some good will come from this in the form of a disclaimer/educational link.

One thing to consider - people go to the cave, then tell other backpackers, they find the site (word of mouth) like we did. My photo site isn't visited very often, and most interested in visiting the cave should be allowed to do so. This isn't a national secret and the only difference today from yesterday is that finding the cave requires less "work". How many people you talk to on the trail should not be a prerequisite for how much exploration of the backcountry you should be permitted to partake. These people were obviously interested enough to find it, they just made a bad judgement call. I don't feel they are "low lifes". What probably happened is one did it, then the others followed suit. Same issue with lean-tos. I haven't gotten any emails about lean-tos I've drawn maps to that have experienced increased graffiti. Some of those places are very special too, and I equally hate graffiti there.

For all we know this is the new tradition. Maybe not one we share, but obviously several people thought it was a good idea to mark their names (like a cannister journal, rememebr those? Unfortunately I don't, but maybe that's what's needed). We have lean-to journals...

What's being fought here isn't me, it's the procession of time. Things are changing and we're all learning in the process of that change.

[sacco]

ditto lumberzac

[lumberzac]

Originally Posted by Robony

"Attached is a photo of the graffiti which has resulted from your posting on the Internet. I implore you to please remove the French Louie's Cave map (and photos) from your website. When you compare the cave photos posted on your site just last year to the more recent one that is attached, I expect that you will agree that this is necessary to prevent further defacing and degradation of this Adirondack special place."

Bravo on your response Kevin.

Exactly how does the emailer know that the "graffiti" resulted from your TR? It seems more and more these days that people are no longer accountable for their own actions. Maybe a disclaimer to the effect of "the above is not intended for ignorant, malicious, or just plain stupid people".

They (we) don't, but then again maybe they did. We will never know the answer. Though this is an instance that I'd prefer to error on the side of caution.

[sacco]

to add a little bit to my ditto of zac's first post-

personally, i will share nearly everything with someone who just takes the time to ask me, even if it's a just an email or a PM.

so in this case, like zac said, i would not have posted the actual map, but if someone had emailed me something like:

"hey, i read your report and i'm also interested in finding french louis' cave. could you give me anymore info?"

i then would have emailed them the map.

i know it's a pretty grey area so i'm not judging your decision to post the map publicly, i just would have done things a little bit differently.

[Mavs00]

Originally Posted by Robony

Exactly how does the emailer know that the "graffiti" resulted from your TR? It seems more and more these days that people are no longer accountable for their own actions.

You don't, but that's not the point............. I wouldn't remove because they told me to, I'd remove cause its the right thing to do.

Personal responsibility, and you'll find no bigger fan of it than me, is something we all share. Stoopid is absolutly NOT responsible for someone else defacing the cave itself, but he is personally responsibly for posting the map on how to get there.

Certainly different levels of responsibility, but responsibility just the same. All I asked was that he take personal responsibility to consider removing the map, which would {HOPEFULLY}, prevent yin yangs from easily locating it and defacing the cave further in the future.


-------------------

Kevin, sorry I lost you in the analogy......

Go -----> HERE . First paragraph say it all. "gifts are rarely taken very good care of" is quite correct (just ask my kids ). The map is a GIFT, and anyone with have a brain can find the spot, and from there...... anything they do is game (which is on them, not you).

Consider the pics of the cave on your site, your desriptions of the trip in, etc..... thats more like a SALE. You gotta pay, in time and effort to get back in there and HUNT for it. If your lucky enought to find it. You'll be rewarded and hopefully treat it nicer.


Actually Sacco says it perfectly.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Mavs00

Kevin, sorry I lost you in the analogy......

Go -----> HERE . First paragraph say it all. "gifts are rarely taken very good care of" is quite correct (just ask my kids ). The map is a GIFT, and anyone with have a brain can find the spot, and from there...... anything they do is game (which is on them, not you).

Consider the pics of the cave on your site, your desriptions of the trip in, etc..... thats more like a SALE. You gotta pay, in time and effort to get back in there and HUNT for it. If your lucky enought to find it. You'll be rewarded and hopefully treat it nicer.

I understand. Have you been there? The map is hardly a gift . At worse a tool or aid, no more helpful than the much more specific and useful instructions we were given trail side. And yet those specific instructions have never appeared publicly (at least not by my fingers).

No need to presume the map is anything more than a map. It's a treasure map with an X marks the spot. It's a tough area to find stuff, we kinda 'happened on it' when we finally reached it. I mentioned GPS coordinates. If I have them they will never see the light of day. It was part of the promise to myself.

This year's been a bad string of luck for internet shared information!

[fvrwld]

I thought when we did this hike last year that it was agreed that a map would not be posted. Or maybe it was just agreed that that the map would not be posted on the forum. Whatever the case I would prefer that a map not be just handed out to the general public.(I did not realize until now that it was)

OTOH...Just to see how "public" it was, I googled "French Louie's Cave". (results here) . Kevin's site does not show up until page 10 of the results. The first google result, brought me to here to a thread in which the cave was discussed. In that thread I mention and actually quote a description of how to get to the cave from Barbara McMartins book. Kevin was incorrect when he wrote I had the wrong hill. I went back through my old .tpo files and saw that I plotted out almost exactly where the cave was. I did this exclusively using the description that I got from the Barbara McMartin book. This infomation was out there long before Kevin put it on his website. Perhaps I am also to blame for posting that description? With all due respect...maybe Ms. McMartin is to blame?(I wonder if the DEC contacted her )

It really troubles me that this happened and that I may have been been a reason why it happened. In fact, it hurts. But...does all infomation need to be bottled up because there are a few a-holes out there that who for some unknown reason feel the need to scrawl their names over the wall of a cave? Damn them!!

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by fvrwld

I thought when we did this hike last year that it was agreed that a map would not be posted. Or maybe it was just agreed that that the map would not be posted on the forum. Whatever the case I would prefer that a map not be just handed out to the general public.(I did not realize until now that it was)

At least we have something to talk about over dinner tonight .

Frankly I don't recall the exact details of what we decided, but the map has been there since uploading the pictures, so I'm 100% sure I wouldn't have posted it if we agreed to not posting any info. I know GPS coordinates were a definite NO!

Request for removal are falling on deaf ears, but I figured this would be an interesting discussion (and has been). I don't necessarily feel anything posted here has been right or wrong. Just like many topics, there's mine, yours, and the truth. In an attempt to find the middle ground I'm going to have the detailed disclaimer and/or link. That should resolve further issues that could be caused by my maps/website. And it will only be added to areas that it seems appropriate (Ouluska Pass, Louie's Cave, etc). But I won't be held liable for everything that ever happens to a place I've visited and posted pics/maps of on my site.

Fortunately I guess for the ADKs I don't do a lot of bushwhacking to remote places .

[Skyclimber]

There are some things that need to be left, as is, French Louie's Cave would be one of them! Out of due respect the map should be deleted from the Website, "as you have given all hikers and vandalizers the key!"

Internet and Guide Books are two different things in my mind. Internet is more widely spread!

[skydances]

My goodness, I just joined this forum and I have one question.....do you guys actually go to work?
just kidding. glad to see such passion about such a beautiful area. I'm stuck down here in NJ, wishing I was up there....

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by skydances

My goodness, I just joined this forum and I have one question.....do you guys actually go to work?

You need to find the right job - one that pays to post!

[NukedRocket]

Count me as a vote for removal. Regardless of deaf ears, I know you can still read.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by NukedRocket

Count me as a vote for removal. Regardless of waffles, I like cheese.

While it's fun to entertain debate on a forum such as ours, we (active members here) are by no means an objective cross section of outdoors-people. If I were to really want to get an accurate "vote" I'd take an ad out in an ADK related magazine or newspaper, and pay people for their opinions (so everyone's motivated to share it, not just those with the loudest voices like Mr DEC bully who emailed me ).

[King Whistle]

Information is not the enemy. Gentlemen must agree to disagree, and this is an area in which there is bound to be disagreement. I am no libertarian, but what possible harm should be expected to come from what is essentially a travel guide? We must expect that people will act according to civil conventions. I live in Connecticut and treasure many places that are relatively unspoiled and yet extensively written about.

I did not intend for my first post to be controversial, but I feel strongly that we must expect adults to act like adults.

[Justin]

I must say that I was happy to see the map to the cave when I first saw it months ago, and could not wait to check it out for myself. I have not yet, but still plan to try and find it someday. I have DEEP respect for the ADKS, and for the legend of French Louie, and would never deface such a treasure in any way what soever. I just think it's too bad that some people would, and now probably will do it again. I am no stranger for writing my name in an lean-to, but would never do it in a place like that. I guess I can see both sides of the debate. But now I feel like there should be a line. But how? I know if I posted a map to the cave, or any other hidden gem, and then suddenly people starting writing there names there, or leaving trash, or what have you, and the D.E.C. and others were asking me to PLEASE delete it, I would feel incredibly terrible, and I'd remove it. But for what it's worth, Thank You for sharing your information. I know Barbera Mcmartin talks about the cave, and where it really is when she talks about Cobble Hill. ----- Hey, maybe it was the same party that trashed the Sampson lean-to. -doutful!