Sharing (or not) Lean-to's

[Battenkiller]

Originally Posted by hillman1

Lean tos are available up to the capacity of the shelter.

I've searched on this site for more specifics on lean-to use regarding sharing. What exactly is the capacity?

I stayed at the Griffin Rapids lean-to last week with my wife. A big party came through and started to land before they saw me standing on the bank. One of the canoes (a beat-to-death aluminum behemoth) was filled to over-capacity (probably with beer) and was listing to the side, almost to the gunwales. This group was obviously there to make noise and party.

They asked how many were staying there and made a lot of comments that suggested that they had a right to stay there but I was able to convince them that there was likely an empty shelter at the Buck's Pond outlet.



BTW, Kerry, a wonderful and somewhat touching trip report. You slogged on through a lot of hardship. You obviously needed the healing of the trail, but you showed a lot of courage to continue. I have to wonder what I'd have done with an injury like that.

[ADK88]

Originally Posted by Battenkiller

I've searched on this site for more specifics on lean-to use regarding sharing. What exactly is the capacity?

Capacity for many lean-tos is 6-8 people. I've been told by a ranger that higher elevation lean-tos designed for 6, and lower elevation ones for 8, but I've never been able to tell a difference between the two.

I believe It's state law that if a lean to is not full, and someone needs shelter, you must provide it for them. Beyond that, it's just the nice thing to do! And by the way, if one person has a hammock, you can put it in the rafters and make some more room! edit: this practice is considered rude to many people.

[Battenkiller]

Originally Posted by ADK88

Capacity for most lean tos is 8 people. I've been told by a ranger that some are designed for 6, but I've never been able to tell a difference between the two.

It's state law that if a lean to is not full, and someone needs shelter, you must provide it for them. Beyond that, it's just the nice thing to do! And by the way, if one person has a hammock, you can put it in the rafters and make some more room!

Interesting.

I've rested or dined at many lean-tos in the past (always unoccupied) but never camped at one until this weekend, that is unless you count Boy Scout camp. It was a blast, but it would have turned into torture if that group of yahoos insisted on staying.

While planning our trip I contacted Raquette River Outfitters about the lean-tos and Anne told me that they were on a first come basis but that you were expected to allow others in if they needed shelter (i.e. caught out in the elements). In our case, it was blue skies and 60 degree temps. The interested group obviously had tents and tarps (maybe even the kitchen sink and "Joe the Plumber") and no rain was forecast for at least two days. Does their desire to stay in a particular shelter instead of their tents constitute "need"?

Six people in their party and our two would have made eight. Quite an intrusion if you ask me. And that ridiculous amount of gear, plus all the firewood we gathered for hours before they arrived late in the day?

I could never do that to someone unless the weather was miserable and I was stuck without a tent. Nice? Nice is respecting folks privacy, not forcing them to adhere to a set of rules for your convenience. And hanging a hammock? C'mon, the whole point of a hammock is to be unfettered by the lack of available campsites. What would be served by someone exercising his "right" to move his hammock into a lean-to I was occupying instead of hanging it between two trees as it was designed to be?


Anyway, thanks for the clarification. The regs on this issue seem vague to me. I would never deny a fellow traveler decent shelter in a time of need and the groups that Kerry encountered were no doubt a bunch of morons, but I come to the woods for escape, not for meeting folks. I will consider this info in future wilderness trips.

I don't want to continue to hijack this thread. I failed to find a thread anywhere here that specifically addresses campsite/lean-to etiquette. Does anyone remember one before I start a new one?

[colden46]

Originally Posted by ADK88

It's state law that if a lean to is not full, and someone needs shelter, you must provide it for them. Beyond that, it's just the nice thing to do! And by the way, if one person has a hammock, you can put it in the rafters and make some more room!

No, that's not state law. We've had this discussion before, and no one could ever point to a regulation that says lean-tos must be shared.

I'm looking for the thread, but until then, here's the section of the regulations relating to lean-tos, and you'll see there is nothing mentioned about sharing:
http://www.dec.ny.gov/regs/4081.html#12998

[Battenkiller]

Originally Posted by colden46

I'm looking for the thread, but until then, here's the section of the regulations relating to lean-tos, and you'll see there is nothing mentioned about sharing:
http://www.dec.ny.gov/regs/4081.html#12998

This is mentioned, although it doesn't say it's law:

Lean-tos are available in many areas on a first come first served basis. Lean-tos cannot be used exclusively and must be shared with other campers.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/7872.html

[redhawk]

Originally Posted by Battenkiller

I don't want to continue to hijack this thread. I failed to find a thread anywhere here that specifically addresses campsite/lean-to etiquette.

SHARE

up to the capacity of the lean-to. regardless of if the other party has tents or not and regardless of the weather.

That's common courtesy, regardless of what any regulations are. Etiquette is just good manners.

And the lean-to's are there for the use of the public, collectively. It's not my lean-to, or your lean-to, it's OUR lean-to. If both of us arrive there, we both have a right to SHARE it, regardless of who arrived first and what we are carrying.

Hawk

[TCD]

I agree with Hawk completely (not always, but certainly on this one). These things are there for us to share.

See this current thread on VFTT for a discussion:

http://www.viewsfromthetop.com/forum...ad.php?t=25777

Tom

[hillman1]

I've only had one not welcome mat at a lean to, and it was the one looking at Colden a few years ago. I've always shared, but I don't know about a bunch af yahoos looking to party all night

[Battenkiller]

Originally Posted by hillman1

I've always shared, but I don't know about a bunch af yahoos looking to party all night

Yeah, well that's my point here. The dictum "Always share" does not sit well with me. Everything is situational to me and I'm not about to change my mind about that at my age.

I've fished in many spots across the country. There are times when you just have to accept the fact that there are going to be folks in your back pocket. The Salmon River is one, as are places like Cairn's Pool on the Beaverkill. If I choose to fish a hot spot like that I can't expect to stake a claim on a piece of water. Yeah, the water is everyone's property to share, just like the lean-tos are, but that doesn't mean I'm going to roll over easy when someone follows me a couple of miles into the bush and climbs into the same pool I'm fishing just because they want to fish it and have a "right" to.

Sorry, but I don't follow that the rules of privacy should be any different for shelters than they are for fishing. There is a time and a place for intruding into someone's space. Hiking in peak times on popular High Peaks routes I would find it perfectly acceptable to fill up every shelter. There are not so many choices up there as there are in the lowlands and waterways, and things can go wrong quickly when left exposed above 4000'. But if you adhere to a rigid set of rules that doesn't allow for varying situations that may present themselves, don't expect me to accept your views.

In my case this past weekend the folks in question were wise to move on. We would not have meshed well and if they made my life hell I'm certain I would have followed suit and a situation would have developed. They sensed this, I imagine, and chose to move on upstream in pursuit of a place that would allow them to stretch out without hassle. And I sincerely hope that if they did find the next shelter unoccupied and some laid back couple came along and decided to push their rights to fill out the shelter and intrude on the party that they paid for that decision with a night of lost sleep.

Bottom line is that if someone capsized or was caught in the rain or violent wind I would not only allow them in, I would encourage it, even build them a fire and feed them. But I come to the woods for solitude, and when I find it I expect my right to it to be respected if at all possible. As well, know that if I come across your occupied shelter I will pass it without a thought, even though I realize it is within my rights to move in. I always carry a tent if I plan to spend the night. There are a few million acres up there to find a spot to set it up.


FWIW, I would like to continue this debate but not on Kerry's trip report here. Any way for the moderators to split this off onto a new thread?

[redhawk]

Originally Posted by Battenkiller

Yeah, well that's my point here. The dictum "Always share" does not sit well with me. Everything is situational to me and I'm not about to change my mind about that at my age.

I've fished in many spots across the country. There are times when you just have to accept the fact that there are going to be folks in your back pocket. The Salmon River is one, as are places like Cairn's Pool on the Beaverkill. If I choose to fish a hot spot like that I can't expect to stake a claim on a piece of water. Yeah, the water is everyone's property to share, just like the lean-tos are, but that doesn't mean I'm going to roll over easy when someone follows me a couple of miles into the bush and climbs into the same pool I'm fishing just because they want to fish it and have a "right" to.

Sorry, but I don't follow that the rules of privacy should be any different for shelters than they are for fishing. There is a time and a place for intruding into someone's space.

But the lean-to is not YOUR space. It's PUBLIC space.

Originally Posted by Battenkiller

Hiking in peak times on popular High Peaks routes I would find it perfectly acceptable to fill up every shelter. There are not so many choices up there as there are in the lowlands and waterways, and things can go wrong quickly when left exposed above 4000'. But if you adhere to a rigid set of rules that doesn't allow for varying situations that may present themselves, don't expect me to accept your views.

In my case this past weekend the folks in question were wise to move on. We would not have meshed well and if they made my life hell I'm certain I would have followed suit and a situation would have developed. They sensed this, I imagine, and chose to move on upstream in pursuit of a place that would allow them to stretch out without hassle. And I sincerely hope that if they did find the next shelter unoccupied and some laid back couple came along and decided to push their rights to fill out the shelter and intrude on the party that they paid for that decision with a night of lost sleep.

Bottom line is that if someone capsized or was caught in the rain or violent wind I would not only allow them in, I would encourage it, even build them a fire and feed them. But I come to the woods for solitude, and when I find it I expect my right to it to be respected if at all possible. As well, know that if I come across your occupied shelter I will pass it without a thought, even though I realize it is within my rights to move in. I always carry a tent if I plan to spend the night. There are a few million acres up there to find a spot to set it up.


FWIW, I would like to continue this debate but not on Kerry's trip report here. Any way for the moderators to split this off onto a new thread?

I'm talking about PUBLIC SHELTERS. They are there for the public to use, up to the capacity. Since they cannot be reserved, then one is unable to reserve them for a private party. That means that if you are going to use a PUBLIC shelter, you should have no expectation of privacy.
If you want privacy, then take a tent and camp somewhere away from the trail in a spot where you would not expect other people to camp.

I prefer privacy, that's why I carry a tent, that way i do not lose my privacy, nor do i have to expect someone else to change their plans because mine weren't made to consider the fact that other people expect, and have a right to, use the lean to.

Whatever expectations we have in the woods should be based solely on our own actions and planning and should not expect that other people have to change theirs because of mine.

On the other hand, to go backpacking and assume that the lean-to's will not be full is poor planning as well.

Hawk

[colden46]

Originally Posted by redhawk

I'm talking about PUBLIC SHELTERS. They are there for the public to use, up to the capacity. Since they cannot be reserved, then one is unable to reserve them for a private party. That means that if you are going to use a PUBLIC shelter, you should have no expectation of privacy.
If you want privacy, then take a tent and camp somewhere away from the trail in a spot where you would not expect other people to camp.

Whoa... now you're talking about PUBLIC CAMPSITES. They are there for the public to use, up to the capacity. Since they cannot be reserved, then one is unable to reserve them for a private party. That means that if you are going to use a PUBLIC campsite, you should have no expectation of privacy.

Do you find it acceptable if someone set up their tent next to yours in a campsite? If not, please explain to me how a campsite is different from a lean-to. I don't see why you're getting so bent out of shape over this, I don't see anything controversial in Battenkiller's post. If it's good etiquette for me to share the lean-to, it's also good etiquette for the other party to move on when they see the LT is occupied. Of course, it's different if there's only one person in the LT, or if there are no other places to camp in the area (as often happens in the High Peaks), or if it's pouring down rain, etc etc. In short, as BattenKiller said, it's situational.

[Neil]

I think Hawk is talking about camping anywhere, away from any designated location, be it a Lean-to or a DEC designated campsite.

He doesn't get bent out of shape. He just argues a point forever....and ever....and ever. And we can never leave.

[redhawk]

[QUOTE=colden46;109468]Whoa... now you're talking about PUBLIC CAMPSITES. They are there for the public to use, up to the capacity. Since they cannot be reserved, then one is unable to reserve them for a private party. That means that if you are going to use a PUBLIC campsite, you should have no expectation of privacy.

Originally Posted by colden46

Do you find it acceptable if someone set up their tent next to yours in a campsite? If not, please explain to me how a campsite is different from a lean-to.

If I set my tent up in a place that designates more then one tent, I have absolutely no problem with someone else setting theirs up next to me. In fact I would figure that someone might.

Since I don't want someone next to me, I bushwhack off trail to a suitable campsite. I do that to avoid having my PRIVACY interrupted as i would expect in a PUBLIC campsite.

What i find amusing here is the fact that people are talking about PRIVACY in places that are PUBLIC.

Oximoronic!!

Hawk

[colden46]

Well, then in that case, replace "public campsite" with "public land". All I'm saying is that if Hawk says you shouldn't have an expectation of privacy in a LT, then you can use that same argument to say you shouldn't have an expectation of privacy anywhere on public land.

I would agree you have no guarantee of privacy, which perhaps means you shouldn't have an expectation either. But to interpret that to mean I should be compelled to allow a rowdy group of drunks to share my LT, when my group is already occupying 75% of the stated capacity, and there are a dozen empty campsites nearby... well, I find that argument to be bollocks. Again, etiquette is a two-way street here. And in the absence of a law stating otherwise, etiquette is all we have to go on here.

[randomscooter]

Originally Posted by Battenkiller

I stayed at the Griffin Rapids lean-to last week with my wife. A big party came through and started to land before they saw me standing on the bank. One of the canoes (a beat-to-death aluminum behemoth) was filled to over-capacity (probably with beer) and was listing to the side, almost to the gunwales. This group was obviously there to make noise and party.

They asked how many were staying there and made a lot of comments that suggested that they had a right to stay there but I was able to convince them that there was likely an empty shelter at the Buck's Pond outlet.

I happen to agree with Hawk as well on this occasion .

Battenkiller, it sounds as if you and the other party worked things out just fine. They made some comments about having the right to share the leanto then you, wishing to preserve your privacy, convinced them that there would be another leanto available at another location. You didn't mention if they grumbled as they paddled away or if they appreciated your desire for privacy, etc. But in any case, they were gracious enough not to impose themselves on you for the night. They might have been out for a party, but sounds like they had some decency at their core as well.

[Battenkiller]

Originally Posted by Neil

I think Hawk is talking about camping anywhere, away from any designated location, be it a Lean-to or a DEC designated campsite.

He doesn't get bent out of shape. He just argues a point forever....and

ever....and ever. And we can never leave.

Not fair here, Neil. Hawk made one post and one response (and a very good one, I might add) to other posts. If anyone is going on and on it's me. But then, you already know that about me from another venue.

Look, I think Colden46 made my point better than I did. Lean-tos seem to have a special set of rules in folks' minds that transcend the other public use lands and facilities. Is it proper manners to barge in on someone's designated campsite because you planned on using it before you left home? Don't try that with me and expect no argument. That's why I brought up the fishing issue. It's all public water, but I don't want to see you when I'm fishing a remote stream. If you see me in a pool or on the bank resting a pool, don't dare get in there with me unless you want to play dueling Clousers (and brother, I can sling 'em with the best). Fisherman, in general, understand this need for privacy, why should backpackers and canoe trippers be exempt?

ADK lean-tos are one of the best ideas in the great outdoors. I wish DEC felt the same because I'd love to put them in every possible place and would volunteer in a heartbeat if they chose to expand the program. The very idea that you can walk into the woods without fear of losing your life due to lack of shelter is a profound notion. That's what's behind the spirit of sharing them - safety, not shared use for pleasure's sake. To put an Adirondack lean-to in the same category as a bench in a city park is beyond my understanding.

While we were on the Oswegatchie, we originally planned to paddle upstream and then hike in to the Five Ponds area. After sensing that we very likely might find our shelter overrun with newcomers, we decided against it. This seriously limited our plans. How nice it would be if the worst we thought might happen is someone getting out to rest or lunch (I have no problem with this, we weren't on a second honeymoon out there) at the shelter and fill their water bottle at the spring instead of coming back to find someone else had left tossed beer cans, baby diapers and dog crap everywhere.

Like I said earlier, we loved the lean-to experience, but if people are in the habit of demanding occupancy at already occupied lean-tos, we will probably forgo the use of them and stick to camping in a tent. Or make a very forceful case for moving on to any unsavory interlopers.

And thanks, Neil, for moving the discussion.

[daxs]

If you do not want to be stuck sharing a lean to, take your tent and then you do not need to share.

[wildriver]

As has been noted before, this topic has come up several times before on the forum, so to recap:

There is no regulation compelling lean-to users to share the shelters with latecomers.

Latecomers have no regulatory right to move into lean-tos that are currently being occupied, even if there is room.

On the other hand:

No one can claim exclusive occupancy of any portion of state land, whether it be a lean-to or an off-trail campsite in the middle of nowhere.

Basically, the state's land use regulations are completely mum on the topic of sharing campsites. No matter where you go in the Forest Preserve, you have no guaranteed "right" to solitude, nor do you have the "right" to intrude on someone else's.

However, there is by all means a valid expectation for solitude. The word is an integral part of the legal definition of "Wilderness Area," meaning that solitude is a feature the state is officially trying to promote and perpetuate. In fact, the Five Ponds Wilderness UMP specifically addresses people "who go into the wilderness primarily as a social excursion seeking the company of others and facilities where they might congregate" by stating:

"Users" in [this] category are not really seeking a wilderness or the experience of it. Therefore, the accommodation of user group 5 is not a goal in the management of this unit.

So there is an official obligation to provide "outstanding opportunities for solitude," and in fact this is a key part of the wilderness experience. Most people that you meet in the backcountry (outside of the eastern High Peaks) are in search of privacy to one degree or another, and it is to everyone's mutual benefit to give each other space when choosing a campsite.

Originally Posted by Battenkiller

Like I said earlier, we loved the lean-to experience, but if people are in the habit of demanding occupancy at already occupied lean-tos, we will probably forgo the use of them and stick to camping in a tent. Or make a very forceful case for moving on to any unsavory interlopers.

But herein lies the rub.

In most parts of the Adirondacks, lean-tos are the only campsites publicized on maps, with the exception of some canoe routes. Therefore everyone knows where the lean-tos are, but not where the alternate tent sites are. In my observation, lean-tos are part of the attraction for choosing an overnight hike to a certain location--ponds that have lean-tos are often more popular destinations than those that don't.

Even in situations where latecomers don't try and insinuate themselves into a lean-to that's already being used, I have seen people settle into a "satelite" tent site within sight and sound of the shelter. Just about every time I've passed the Brooktrout Lake shelter, there has been one group of 2 or 3 people in the lean-to and another small group camping about 100 feet away.

Also, most lean-tos are located in prominent locations with high traffic levels, where privacy simply isn't possible if other people are using the trail. For instance, last weekend I spent the night at a lean-to that literally sat on the main trail--anyone passing through would likely have to walk between the shelter and the fireplace.

In my case, when I started hiking and canoeing I harbored an early appreciation for lean-tos. But in those days my "weekends" were in the middle of the week. When I got a real job and could only get out on Saturdays and Sundays like everyone else, I discovered it was difficult to maintain my sense of solitude while staying in them. I soured on the idea of lean-tos and eventually came to the conclusion the world would be a better place (from my POV) with fewer of them.

Being someone who values solitude--indeed, that's why I prefer Wilderness Areas over, say, developed campgrounds--I tend to only use lean-tos when:

1. I am with a group of people
2. I know the area is not well used and the probability of encountering others at that particular time is low
3. In the winter, when in my opinion lean-tos are far more useful

Tent camping entails more flexibility because there are far more tent sites than lean-to sites. So, generally, I enjoy the wilderness experience more when I keep away from lean-tos--especially the more popular ones.

I hope this POV helps.

By the way, there have been times in the past when I have shared lean-tos and tent sites with strangers.

There have also been times when I've asked latecomers to move on from both lean-tos and tent sites where I was camping.

There was also a time when I was in a lean-to, some latecomers arrived and moved in uncomfortably close, and I moved on myself.

Each situation was different.

[Battenkiller]

Fantastic post, WR. It covers it all IMO and clarifies a few points for me and I'm sure some others as well.

One of the things that strikes me is the difference in attitudes between backpackers and canoe trippers (which, due to my bad knees, is my primary interest). While it is theoretically possible for canoe trippers to set up camp anywhere 150' from the water, few would choose to do so as the experience would be compromised. We travel upon the water, carry too much gear and look forward to camping by the river or lake. That is only allowed in designated sites. Therefore, most of these sites are clearly marked for visibility from the water's edge.

Backpackers without maps delineating the available designated sites are probably drawn to the lean-tos as an only choice, hence the culture of sharing that has arisen. But they are also much more capable of finding a site outside of the designated areas than canoeists are. My trip on the Oswegatchie gave me few opportunities to even pull over and get out, much less find a camping site. The designated sites were all in the logical places as determined by the terrain.

The camping freedom that can be had for the backpacker in the Adirondacks is vast compared to the canoe tripper, particularly if he or she is adept at hammock camping. I can't see why anyone would choose to move into a shelter full of strangers when all that wilderness awaits.

[Battenkiller]

Originally Posted by sheri

I've often wondered if naked camping would discourage close neighbors...

Depends on who's doing the flashing. If I had the nerve to do it I would have the 'Dacks to myself.