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Old 02-28-2013, 11:11 AM   #21
redhawk
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Originally Posted by bucktrout View Post
Our fearless leader of a governor is so transparent its ridiculous.Its pretty obvious he is trying to suck up to sportsman because he crapped on the second ammendment.I like alot of others fear what will happen If the tyrant gets to the whitehouse.I know their is nothing this lowlife can do to win my vote at this point.
Did I miss something? He took away everyone's right to bear arms? No one can own a gun? Funny that I wouldn't notice something that obvious?

Just out of curiosity, can anyone tell me how large a magazine was in a musket? And how many shots it could get off in 60 seconds? How many assault rifles and semiautomatics did the Continental Army have? How many guns were Africans and African Americans allowed to own? How about Japanese Americans during WWII?

I guess it's all in ones perspective.
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Old 02-28-2013, 02:41 PM   #22
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Hey great, now we can spend the savings on the mandatory firearm insurance policies!
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Old 02-28-2013, 02:46 PM   #23
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I won't be buying a fishing or hunting license this year from NY State. Encourage others to do the same.
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Old 02-28-2013, 05:37 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by redhawk View Post
Did I miss something? He took away everyone's right to bear arms? No one can own a gun? Funny that I wouldn't notice something that obvious?

Just out of curiosity, can anyone tell me how large a magazine was in a musket? And how many shots it could get off in 60 seconds? How many assault rifles and semiautomatics did the Continental Army have? How many guns were Africans and African Americans allowed to own? How about Japanese Americans during WWII?

I guess it's all in ones perspective.
I believe that one was allowed to own the current state of the art weapons of the time. Was the repeating rifle, a weapon far superior to earlier weapons, outlawed to the common citizen?
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Old 02-28-2013, 06:31 PM   #25
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I believe that one was allowed to own the current state of the art weapons of the time. Was the repeating rifle, a weapon far superior to earlier weapons, outlawed to the common citizen?
No and most repeating rifles are perfectly legal today. However I don't recall machine guns, BARS or Thompsons ever being legal and those are superior to a repeating rifle in firepower.

I also believe that it reads,"The right to bear arms", not, "The right to bear all arms".

Current state of the art weapons would include rocket launchers, RPG's and missles. So by denying those has the second amendment been violated all these years?
My point is that unless someone refuses to allow the ownership of any arms, the second amendment remains intact.
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:14 PM   #26
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So....
The first amendment gives us the freedom of speech not the freedom of ALL speech ?

I guess it is all in one's perspective
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Old 02-28-2013, 08:18 PM   #27
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So....
The first amendment gives us the freedom of speech not the freedom of ALL speech ?

I guess it is all one's perspective
Lets see. We're comparing guns to mouths, eh. Fair enough, both can be shot off.

If you verbally threaten someone you can be arrested.
If you say something untrue about someone, you can be sued for slander. If you print it you can be sued for libel.

If in the course of your "speech", verbal or written, you reveal what may be considered a state secret or classified information, you can be arrested for treason. If you preach the overthrow of the government, you can be arrested for sedition.

So to answer your question, Yes, under the first amendment, not all speech is free.

Next argument please.
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Old 02-28-2013, 08:27 PM   #28
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I didn't think it was an argument , I thought you wanted to engage in open dialog on a sensitive subject.
I guess I under estimated your intentions.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:15 PM   #29
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Current state of the art weapons would include rocket launchers, RPG's and missles. So by denying those has the second amendment been violated all these years?
The 2nd amendment protects the right of the people to own and possess arms that would typically be found in a militia, "back then" and "now", essentially shoulder fired weapons and handguns. Heavy weaponry such as cannon, rocket launchers and such have always been beyond the scope of "militia arms".
The 2nd Amendment and the Civil War are two subjects that, for some reason, people like to "debate" with very little actual knowledge of beyond "tidbits" and parroted hearsay.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:21 PM   #30
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It is obvious this thread is beginning to "stray" and since I have no desire to abrade the mods, I will say nothing further on the subject.
Any questions or comments from anyone, feel free to PM me.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:25 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by redhawk View Post
Just out of curiosity, can anyone tell me how large a magazine was in a musket? And how many shots it could get off in 60 seconds? How many assault rifles and semiautomatics did the Continental Army have? How many guns were Africans and African Americans allowed to own? How about Japanese Americans during WWII?

I guess it's all in ones perspective.


The issue is that technology has changed well beyond what the founding fathers could ever have anticipated. It is up to us to reasonably interpret and adapt their intent as the situation changes and to ensure (and trust) that our cgovernment will get it right most of the time.

This thread is dancing very close to the edge of acceptability...
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:39 PM   #32
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The issue is that technology has changed well beyond what the founding fathers could ever have anticipated. It is up to us to reasonably interpret and adapt their intent as the situation changes and to ensure (and trust) that our cgovernment will get it right most of the time.

This thread is dancing very close to the edge of acceptability...
That is exactly what I meant by comparing it to free speech. Back then they didn't have the internet , world news etc. to offer their opinions but they haven't altered the first amendment to exclude them.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:10 PM   #33
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It is obvious this thread is beginning to "stray" and since I have no desire to abrade the mods, I will say nothing further on the subject.
Any questions or comments from anyone, feel free to PM me.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Guys we need to get back on the topic at hand.

I know it fun to talk about the politics of it all, but we have had lots threads locked lately.

Just an FYI
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:17 PM   #34
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I'm glad that they want to realign the hunting and fishing fees.
As an out of state sportsman some of the fees just didn't make sense.....6 week rifle season- $140 1 week blackpowder-$140 I just don't get that reasoning.

Just because other states charge an arm and a leg for non residents doesn't mean it is right. I think all the states should reduce those fees thus attracting more sportsman who will spend more money which would help the local economy.

I was seriously thinking of forgoing the $280 sportsman license and just getting the regular firearm license. Less time in the state and much less money I would have spent purchasing food and gas and other necessities.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:36 PM   #35
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I didn't think it was an argument , I thought you wanted to engage in open dialog on a sensitive subject.
I guess I under estimated your intentions.
When you debate, you present your argument. You"argue" your point.
Your initial conclusion was correct. I want an open, civil dialog.

Unfortunate this issue seems to have extremes on both sides. I am either Pro gun, nor anti gun. However I do believe that there exists a paranoia on both sides of the issue, and what is needed is a middle ground. It seems however that to "pro" gun people, that anyone who does not believe that guns are the solution to most problems or that everyone should be able to own any kind of gun is "anti" gun. That makes dialog difficult.

I think I have made some pertinent points that deserve consideration. One reply to my points was comparing the first amendment to the second and I think that I made a legitimate argument that NO, not all speech is free under the first amendment just as I believe that limiting certain types of firearms does not violate the Second Amendment.

My opinion is that if the second amendment were written in today's times, it would be much longer, more detailed and would include some restrictions. It was originally written in a time when there was no standing army such as we have today, and the defense of this country had depended on armed militias.
Thats just my opinion, based on what I consider common sense. Unlike many of the zealots, I do not pretend to know what extent the founding fathers wanted to carry the 2nd amendment. Many claim to know the intent of the 2nd amendment, even though they were not there when it was discussed, nor to my knowledge is there any written record from which they could accurately judge the intent.

So, I hope we can all play nice and argue our points in a civil and reasonable way.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:37 PM   #36
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I'm glad that they want to realign the hunting and fishing fees.
As an out of state sportsman some of the fees just didn't make sense.....6 week rifle season- $140 1 week blackpowder-$140 I just don't get that reasoning.

Just because other states charge an arm and a leg for non residents doesn't mean it is right. I think all the states should reduce those fees thus attracting more sportsman who will spend more money which would help the local economy.

I was seriously thinking of forgoing the $280 sportsman license and just getting the regular firearm license. Less time in the state and much less money I would have spent purchasing food and gas and other necessities.
I understand this thinking as I hunted in 2 other states besides NY this year. Out of state licences are going bonkers right now. It still wont stop me from hunting other states. What it has done is forced me to pick which season I have the best chance for opportunities and cost of being there. Same thinking as you are doing.

For me that has been Archery, Special Draws opportunities and Muzzle Loader Seasons. I suggest the same to anyone looking to hunt here in NY.

For me Bow season offers the best opportunities. Trips to the ADK are for Grouse and Muzzle Loader deer. That's about it.

Is the Licence fee's fair? For what we have here in this state no probably not. Is the revenue needed to keep operating at the current level absolutely.

The DEC has cut and cut and cut. Now if the prices drop there will be more cuts. I think its unnecessary. I would rather see licence fee's continue to increase and see more Rangers, Game Wardens, Field Tech's, Biologists, and services offered.

There's tons of things the DEC would like to do , but funding is all ways in short supply.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:38 PM   #37
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That is exactly what I meant by comparing it to free speech. Back then they didn't have the internet , world news etc. to offer their opinions but they haven't altered the first amendment to exclude them.
But they have written new laws to deal with them.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:42 PM   #38
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Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Guys we need to get back on the topic at hand.

I know it fun to talk about the politics of it all, but we have had lots threads locked lately.

Just an FYI
Part of the topic at hand was to call the governor a tyrant. I think the debate that is on going now is civil and valid and reasonable.
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Old 02-28-2013, 11:35 PM   #39
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Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion on the gun issue,I respect that.I personally own 25-30 rifles/shotguns/pistols.I never have or will commit any crimes with them.I dont have a problem with possible "changes" to gun laws with changing times but pushing it through in the middle of the night without giving ample time for people to understand it and take into consideration people who are not criminals is not the way to do it.Now I cant buy or sell a deer rifle to my friend without going through an FFL?I cant fill the clip on my .22 pistol?They are just making another marketable item for the black market.assault weapons will still be around just the only one that will have them will be criminals.Cocaine is banned as well,does that mean its not around?
Back to my point of my first post,I just hope sportsman see through this liscence fee decrease and realize he's just sucking up because he knows what he did was wrong.To each their own but My vote is for uncle ted
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:32 AM   #40
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The DEC has cut and cut and cut. Now if the prices drop there will be more cuts. I think its unnecessary. I would rather see licence fee's continue to increase and see more Rangers, Game Wardens, Field Tech's, Biologists, and services offered.

There's tons of things the DEC would like to do , but funding is all ways in short supply.
That's the thing, when the fees were raised it was sold as "needed increase in revenue to maintain current programs"..
Then the raised revenues were "held hostage" (by the budgeting office) and attempts were made to transfer some of that money into the general fund.

Now look at the state of our fish stocking programs (for one example) - the Rome hatchery outbreak and loss of trout was a direct result of understaffed hatchery.
DEC has taken the brunt of the budget cuts and it's showing (everywhere you look) while, last I heard, there's still unspent/non allocated money in the EPF..

I'd rather see a proposal for funding the biologists and foresters at DEC and fully funding the promised habitat and stocking programs (not to mention the backlog of forest preserve acquisitions, which are a whole separate animal).
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