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Old 02-23-2005, 07:24 PM   #81
Judgeh
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As I said earlier, a gun might be necessary in a "Wildernessphoto extreme wilderness situation", otherwise why would I hike with someone who is merely asserting his/her point that they have a right to carry a firearm? I don't have the slightest desire to do so. Whether you get a laugh out of that or not is of no moment to me.

Besides, I probably couldn't keep pace with you anyway.
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Old 02-23-2005, 09:24 PM   #82
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Like I said earlier, laughable was a poor choice of words for as serious of a topic. I have no desire to assert my "point" on anybody. I was caught off guard by the thought of showing up to a "forum hike" only to have you or somebody else say "I'm not hiking with him..." hence some of my questions.

Have you ever had a bad experience with a gun?

You are likely faster than me anyway...for what that's worth...
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Old 02-23-2005, 09:58 PM   #83
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Hawk- Looking back over this thread has brought up a question...how is using a gun to defend yourself from a snake different from anthing else. You stated animal encounters are largely the fault of humans, and for that the animals should not suffer, yet you advocate pistols for snake defense. Could you clarify?
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Old 02-24-2005, 12:21 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ken999
Hawk- Looking back over this thread has brought up a question...how is using a gun to defend yourself from a snake different from anthing else. You stated animal encounters are largely the fault of humans, and for that the animals should not suffer, yet you advocate pistols for snake defense. Could you clarify?
It's much easier to come upon a snake accidently then it is a bear or other animal if you have any knowledge of the woods at all. I've spent years in the woods and never was surprised by , nor surprised a bear. I have however had some close snake encounters on four occasions. No I didn't shoot em, I was wearing knee high boots knowing I was in snake country!

You also have an excellent chance of killing a snake witth a pistol. With a bear, you are more apt to pi$$ him off and cause him to render more damage.
Plus if you shoot at a snake on the ground and miss, there is little chance of the stray slug striking someone nearby.

And I believe I made the exception "that I could understand and not have a problem with people carrying a pistol in snake infested areas". I would not call that "advocating it". I don't carry one there either, I dress to protect.
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Old 02-24-2005, 09:02 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ken999
Like I said earlier, laughable was a poor choice of words for as serious of a topic. I have no desire to assert my "point" on anybody. I was caught off guard by the thought of showing up to a "forum hike" only to have you or somebody else say "I'm not hiking with him..." hence some of my questions.

Have you ever had a bad experience with a gun?

You are likely faster than me anyway...for what that's worth...
I used a .22 for target practice as a kid (and wasn't bad...that was before I needed glasses).

Yes. I had one bad experience of an accidental discharge of an automatic weapon among friends. I never touched it and no one was hurt but it was a wake up call.

I was a prosecutor of major felonies for 23 years, so you should probably add that to the "bad experience" column.

As an aside, you might, as a courtesy to others, advise them of your intentions to carry well ahead of a scheduled hike and rest on their decision as to whether it's acceptable. Just a suggestion.
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Old 02-24-2005, 12:10 PM   #86
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Here's a thought for you......

With my mouth, why would I need a gun?
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Old 02-24-2005, 01:55 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redhawk
Here's a thought for you......

With my mouth, why would I need a gun?
As always, I would not argue with you!
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Old 02-24-2005, 02:55 PM   #88
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Thanks for the insight fellas...

Hawk, I take it you are talking about using shot shells for snakes?
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Old 02-25-2005, 07:00 PM   #89
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what makes a gun discharge by accindent droping it ..unclean, is there bad parts that cause this problem .?
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Old 02-25-2005, 07:13 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashtonscavette
what makes a gun discharge by accindent droping it ..unclean, is there bad parts that cause this problem .?
Simple carelessness by an individual with the training and the intelligence to know better.

That is one reason why I do not travel in the company of firearms.
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Old 02-25-2005, 08:53 PM   #91
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Are you guys still beating this dead horse?
90 posts...wow that's got to be some kind of record!
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Old 02-25-2005, 09:49 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashtonscavette
what makes a gun discharge by accindent droping it ..unclean, is there bad parts that cause this problem .?
Most often caused by a loose nut on the trigger!!
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Old 02-25-2005, 10:11 PM   #93
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so the action....... i mean i checked with the blue light to check the barrel and no cracks i mean what fault happens were in the action the hammer... what makea a gun false fire............ debris ? in the action?? bad shot mabey >?
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Old 02-26-2005, 02:46 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Wildernessphoto
Are you guys still beating this dead horse?
90 posts...wow that's got to be some kind of record!
You're right, Gary. I'm retiring from this topic.
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Old 02-26-2005, 09:15 AM   #95
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Ashton- guns vary in design, some have safeties that block the firing pin, some block the sear, some block the hammer and other simply limit the trigger from moving. The better the safety design the less chance of a discharge by dropping.

Guns that are not properly assembled or re-assembled after cleaning could possibly be trouble.

Unclean guns could be prone to misfire, depending on design. Most guns will be o.k. if not perfectly clean.

Improper handling of a firearm is probably the number one cause of accidental discharge.

Guns that are in proper working order and handled correctly, are safe. Some by design are "more safe", but in todays lawsuit crazy world, gun manufacturers are held to a fine standard of safety.

If you own a gun and have some questions about it, contact the manufacturer and they will be more than happy to provide you with safety information for that particular gun. Most have safety information posted on their websites as well.
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Old 02-26-2005, 03:01 PM   #96
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From many, many years ago, I still remember the name of the gentleman that taught the hunter education class I took. Scoop Robbins, I'll never forget his name, nor his common sense.

Scoop's definition of the safety on a gun is, "a mechanical device that CAN and WILL FAIL." That was the definition we had to write on our final test or fail the course. No one failed the course, and I'll bet that every single person that Scoop taught remembers his definition.

If a gun goes off it is due to one of two things. Either the discharge was intentional, or someone screwed up. There is no gray.

I'm comfortable around guns, and comfortable being in the company of those that don't worry about having accidents. They don't worry about accidents because they KNOW how NOT to have accidents. Safety is practiced every single second that a gun is around. With that said, there are lots of people that I will not be around when firearms are involved. They don't harbor the same respect for guns that I do, and I don't want a part of their inevitable "accident."

To each their own.


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Old 02-26-2005, 03:32 PM   #97
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Someone once asked Clarance Petty, who spent much time in the woods, often alone, what people did if they chopped their leg with an axe while alone.

His reply?

"We don't chop our legs with an Axe"
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Old 02-26-2005, 03:39 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildernessphoto
Are you guys still beating this dead horse?
90 posts...wow that's got to be some kind of record!
Not even close to the record.....

Mile High Club......223 posts.....in 16 days
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Old 03-03-2005, 06:28 PM   #99
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Something extremely important that no one's seemed to make note of is that NOT ALL GUNS ARE EQUAL. The effectiveness of a gun against a bear seems to be treated in terms of probability, when it's really a matter of whether or not sufficient damage has been done to incapacitate the animal.

True there are some elements that are up to chance, but when you control certain factors, it's the chance of failure that depends on a freak accident, not success.

When folks talk about packing a gun, they usually think of a pistol. Pistols in general tend to fire bullets with less kinetic energy than a rifle fires its bullets, which are usually different bullets as well. So far the only quantitative descriptions of guns used here are 25/20 and 44 Magnum.

The 44 Magnum is a substantial round for a pistol, but it is on the milder side of cartridges chambered in a rifle. I'm not familiar with the 25-20 but if those numbers mean the same things as a 30-30, then someone's chosen the wrong gun for protection. I'd be uncomfortable with something as mild as a 30-30, and while I'd have some confidence in a 44 Magnum, I know too much about firearms and ballistics to settle for that. I'm just guessing that when people talk about packing guns, they assume choices are limited to standard semi-automatic pistols in 9x19mm, 40 S&W, or 45 ACP. Anyone who considers those effective defense against bears has my sympathy.

No I'm not full of experience, but I am familiar with the general capabilities of different firearms. I know that someone telling of a 25/20 failing to stop a black bear is nothing to be surprised about, and that if I actually intended to use something for protection against bears I would consider a 35 Remington, 308 Winchester, or 270 Winchester the absolute minimums, or perhaps standard slugs from a 12ga shotgun. My preference would be a 35 Whelen or 444 Marlin, I might SETTLE for a 30-06. For those who think my choices are undergunned, there are rifle magnum cartridges.

In case anyone was wondering, yes I have met bear in the Adirondacks. It was a generally amiable encounter. The fellow was scared away by another camper's airhorn. And I wasn't armed. Not sure I'd even want to lug any gun around the high peaks. But I'd consider it if it were legal (hence the whole point of this thread.)

Don't get me wrong, I agree that a non-projectile weapon such as a sharp stick, knife, or staff would certainly have its merits, and I thoroughly respect the choices of those who rely on them and not firearms. I'm not even saying I would definitely carry a gun while hiking in the Adirondacks. All I'm trying to say is that not all guns are the same, and neither are all gun owners. Talking about stopping a black bear as a matter of probability just doesn't recognize the science involved. Sure freak accidents can happen. But the odds are low of a person with adequate skill (first) and adequate equipment (second) failing to stop an attacking bear.

Now I'm not falsely presuming an aggressive nature for these bears, I'm just talking about the remote possibility of an encounter that requires that deadly force be used.

There's only one position here that I have an issue with, and that's a prejudice of people who carry guns. The prejudice being presumably that they're just looking for a chance to shoot something or that shooting is a knee-jerk reaction. Anyone with any understanding of life and the destructive power of firearms will only use one against a living creature to sustain one's own life, whether it be protection or sustainance. Even hunters are sobered by seeing the death of an animal at their hands. Generalizing gun owners and gun carryers as trigger happy accidents waiting to happen is like generalizing Americans of African descent as uneducated criminals. It's a false generalization based on a stereotype presented by a few bad folks.

As far as accidents waiting to happen, I couldn't say it better than those who've posted before that such things are completely dependent of the person carrying the gun.

I for one would also like to know the NY laws regarding carrying a loaded or unloaded rifle in the Adirondack Park for personal defense against potentially aggressive animals, and what laws are in place regarding the use of deadly force. The general rule for personal defense against human attackers is that one must believe that their life is in danger, though state laws vary.

Don't get me wrong, I would view using a firearm against dangerous animals as a last resort. Yes I agree that the best action is to avoid such encounters, and that use of nonlethal objects to ward off an animal is much preferable to shooting something you're not prepared to eat. I view the use of deadly force as a last resort, but I reserve the right to keep it available. I have every respect to those who have mastered other means of preventing violent encounters with animals. If your position is that anyone hiking should first master hand to hand combat with a bear, well, that's an interesting viewpoint. If you believe that killing animals is wrong, I sure hope you're a vegetarian. Otherwise, there's a pretty good arguement for those who choose to carry guns for personal defense in the mountains.

So say I wanted to carry a simple pump action shotgun at the side of my backpack or inside? Something with say an 18" barrel and a folding stock for easier packing? Or perhaps a lever action rifle? Would it be legal to carry them loaded, or must they be unloaded? If they must be unloaded, a wiser choice may be something using a detachable magazine for quick insertion in an emergency.

Here's another question, do the rangers carry anything to use against dangerous animals or criminals?
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Old 03-04-2005, 10:53 AM   #100
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EW21- Nice post...I really wish that I had the ability to convey my thoughts onto the screen in the manner you did. I guess I should have paid more attention in English class.

Your questions lead us back to the origin of the thread. I'm going do some digging to back this up, but for now...I know of no laws prohibiting carrying a loaded firearm while backpacking on NYS land.

If it is hunting season, and you have a valid hunting license, then you need to abide by the hunting regulations.
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