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Old 02-14-2005, 10:55 PM   #41
Judgeh
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How are you Gary?

Perhaps we're talking apples and oranges here? I may be envisioning a different style of backpacking than you or Rick.

I'm usually accompanied by one or more buds, on a marked trail and hanging around a high peak, which means I'm never very far from civilization. It is then that I would not feel the necessity for a firearm nor would I feel comfortable with someone else who feels a need to carry. Many of us have experienced what Rick described on his hike. Hiking by oneself can be spooky. That's why I almost never backpack alone. A overtired, overworked imagination should not, I believe, justify carrying a firearm.

On the other hand, if I were planning a trek in grizzly country or an otherwise real wilderness excursion I might be persuaded otherwise. (HOWEVER, I am aware of the perfect aim required to bring down a grizzly charging through the brush a few feet in front of one at 20++mph!!!) Gary, your point about a firearm for survival under these cricumstances has greater validity.

Just a few thoughts from one who appreciates a spirited discussion.
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Old 02-14-2005, 11:28 PM   #42
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i have seen alot of response and thoughts on carrying a gun .....just want to say my thing..have bin reading books on attacking bears and outher animals i've seen that 95%
of bears that charge are bluffing ...most people enjoying the forest in were there is bear...
when they are not hunting.... but looking to repel of a charging bear or animal is a flare gun ......its light its legal and could help you in a life saving status.....is not dug in your pack or straped on the pack ..and has proven to spook large brown bears even at even a ten feet away distance ..some might say hey the creature is not dead but those that have used them have lived to tell about it ...this thought of mine was only thought for the Adirondacks not Alaska ...i'd sure have a gun in Alaska ...
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Old 02-14-2005, 11:31 PM   #43
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they just fire the flare in the air? or do they shoot the flare directly at the bear?
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Old 02-14-2005, 11:32 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judgeh
How are you Gary?

Perhaps we're talking apples and oranges here? I may be envisioning a different style of backpacking than you or Rick.

I'm usually accompanied by one or more buds, on a marked trail and hanging around a high peak, which means I'm never very far from civilization. It is then that I would not feel the necessity for a firearm nor would I feel comfortable with someone else who feels a need to carry. Many of us have experienced what Rick described on his hike. Hiking by oneself can be spooky. That's why I almost never backpack alone. A overtired, overworked imagination should not, I believe, justify carrying a firearm.

On the other hand, if I were planning a trek in grizzly country or an otherwise real wilderness excursion I might be persuaded otherwise. (HOWEVER, I am aware of the perfect aim required to bring down a grizzly charging through the brush a few feet in front of one at 20++mph!!!) Gary, your point about a firearm for survival under these cricumstances has greater validity.

Just a few thoughts from one who appreciates a spirited discussion.
Hi Bruce!
Ya...You guys in black robes do like a good argument!
Your right, we are talking apples and oranges. I like my solitude, so I go in deeper than most. and sometimes stay a week at a time.
I tend to be a waterfall/secluded lake bagger, and sometimes bushwhack in to find them.

There's nothing like stringing a hammock next to a waterfall 20 miles from the nearest road, and just "being". Just read a book, and wait for the right light for pictures...

Life is good...
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Old 02-14-2005, 11:37 PM   #45
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depending on the distance of the animal in general fire on the ground ..lots of smoke and light. this is say so ......
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Old 02-14-2005, 11:41 PM   #46
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a bear ten feet away looking at you and you thinking i wonder... better then killing it lay flare ten feet in front of you ...storys have shown even browns at a kill sit like caribu made a run for it ......
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Old 02-15-2005, 12:05 AM   #47
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nice...
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Old 02-15-2005, 12:09 AM   #48
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check it out Larry Kaniut .......
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Old 02-15-2005, 09:29 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildernessphoto
Hi Bruce!
Ya...You guys in black robes do like a good argument!
Your right, we are talking apples and oranges. I like my solitude, so I go in deeper than most. and sometimes stay a week at a time.
I tend to be a waterfall/secluded lake bagger, and sometimes bushwhack in to find them.

There's nothing like stringing a hammock next to a waterfall 20 miles from the nearest road, and just "being". Just read a book, and wait for the right light for pictures...

Life is good...
And very excellent photographs they are!
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Old 02-15-2005, 10:49 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judgeh
....Many of us have experienced what Rick described on his hike. Hiking by oneself can be spooky. That's why I almost never backpack alone. A overtired, overworked imagination should not, I believe, justify carrying a firearm.
....
Judgeh,
While I realize I do not need to justify my desire to carry a gun at times, I will provide some enlightenment.

I do most of my backpacking alone, other than when I lead trips for the AMC or ADK (and then I don't ever carry much more than a pocketknife).

However, when I am out alone, and the most I have ever been out on my own was 10 days (except for 6 days in Alaska that felt like 2 months because I saw nobody for 4 of the days) I sometimes carry a sidearm. Most of my hiking now is on the AT, (I have backpacked about 380-410 miles alone over the past 2 years on it in PA, NJ & VA) as well as other linear trails or bushwacking in northern PA.

I have never had a weird feeling when backpacking alone, except for the one time I described and that occured about 12 years into my backpacking experiences. I have learned over the past 15 years of being in the backwoods to trust my gut instinct or the "second sense" that many of us possess. I also learned from a couple of years of Karate to avoid situations that could put me in harm's way.

I am not sure if you were referring to me specifically with your "overtired, overworked imagination" comment, but if you were, then I find it interesting that with your profession, you wouldn't have gathered more facts before judging.
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Old 02-15-2005, 10:56 AM   #51
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Just out of curiosity (and to play the devils advocate), what do you think the odds are of stopping a charging bear with a pistol, before it tears you to shreds?
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Old 02-15-2005, 11:02 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
then I find it interesting that with your profession, you wouldn't have gathered more facts before judging.
Cheers
Ah there is your mistake Rick.

Judges do not listen to nor make decisions based on facts They listen to Arguments, presented by each side and render a verdict based on that.

The best argument is not necessarily the most factual one!!

In fact in a court of law, there are rules that prevent the presentation of some fact and the Judge must often disregard the truth if he is following "the rule of Law".

Law is not synonomous with truth or fact and sometimes not even justice.

(Ah, but I digress)
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Old 02-15-2005, 11:03 AM   #53
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Lot's of opinions here...some would argue that traveling the high intensity areas like the high peaks would further reduce the reasons to carry a gun...lot's of people around, trails are well marked, etc...but the fact of the matter is these areas are conditioning bears to seek out humans for the food reward...all the more reason for personal protection if you ask me.

Spots like Gary speaks of, one would probably never have any problems with a bear. All the "backwoods" bears that I have seen or heard about simply turn inside out to get away from humans. In these situations a gun is more for survival if something bad were to happen, like breaking an ankle...or being overrun by Ashtons goats'...so I hear...

I find it laughable that someone would not hike with me because I was carrying a gun. Am I dangerous? Apparently not...the FBI, State Police and and County Sherriff all seem to think I'm o.k.? How about an axe or knife? Are they allowed?
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Old 02-15-2005, 11:07 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redhawk
Just out of curiosity (and to play the devils advocate), what do you think the odds are of stopping a charging bear with a pistol, before it tears you to shreds?

dam close to 0. especially since the shooting a bear in the forehead is actually very ineffective. their skulls are very hard and sloped at an angle so that bullets often glance off.

the chances of you turning a bluff charge into a full attack by pissing the bear off? prolly much better.

bear pepper spray is a much more effective deterrent- if used properly.

http://www.udap.com/product.htm
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Old 02-15-2005, 11:07 AM   #55
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Am I dangerous? Apparently not...the FBI, State Police and and County Sherriff all seem to think I'm o.k.? How about an axe or knife? Are they allowed?
Ken, those aren't exactly the kind of references that inspire confidence in me!!
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Old 02-15-2005, 11:19 AM   #56
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ofcourse carrying a can of pepper spray might not give you the same "peace of mind" and might not be as effective if you bushwack/stumble into someones little pot plantation.
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Old 02-15-2005, 11:27 AM   #57
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My point being that I am not a criminal...
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Old 02-15-2005, 11:40 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by sacco
dam close to 0. especially since the shooting a bear in the forehead is actually very ineffective. their skulls are very hard and sloped at an angle so that bullets often glance off.

the chances of you turning a bluff charge into a full attack by pissing the bear off? prolly much better.

bear pepper spray is a much more effective deterrent- if used properly.

http://www.udap.com/product.htm

Yes the odds are low, but still higher than fighting one off with your hands.

Pepper spray being non-leathal, is not, IMHO, something that I am willing to risk my life to. I want something that will "level the playing field"...meaning the bear can kill me, I need to be able to kill the bear...or Moose, or Wolverine etc.

Again, chances of that type of scenario here in the 'dacks is pretty low...almost non-existant, but when it comes right down to it, I want to survive.
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Old 02-15-2005, 03:49 PM   #59
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Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by sacco
ofcourse carrying a can of pepper spray might not give you the same "peace of mind" and might not be as effective if you bushwack/stumble into someones little pot plantation.

that was you!
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Old 02-15-2005, 03:53 PM   #60
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just kidding, never touched the stuff!
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