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Old 04-24-2011, 01:33 PM   #41
paddlewheel
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Originally Posted by colden46 View Post
Which is exactly why I say that rafting is the type of business the Adirondacks needs, because 6 more huge-impact ski areas and condo developments are the alternative. (And see why I called rafting low-impact now?)

In one thread you're complaining about yuppie ski developments, in this thread you're complaining about yuppie rafting. As an honest question, what do you see as the economic future of the Adirondacks?
Maybe something more healthy than mass transit rides with rubber boats full 'a knuckleheads...........

I don't know...maybe spend more time in town when your're there..Get to know the people ...buy some arts and crafts...(lotta good stuff there)...

If you can swing it .....buy some available property...fix it up...pay some taxes ...be a part of what you love....get involved....do something other than pack a bag and come back home..The Adk's are slowly losing their original folks..Population is declining ...do something to make it a better place..

Last edited by paddlewheel; 04-24-2011 at 02:05 PM..
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Old 04-24-2011, 02:21 PM   #42
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One thing that cranks me is the effect on the fishery that the daily water release has. Up and down can't be good for the trout population all for the all mighty buck.

I talked to several outfitters and they swear that it has no effect.

Common sense tells me otherwise.
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Old 04-24-2011, 07:03 PM   #43
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One Time

One time Val and Hawk hike into the gorge and see people pooping. One Time.
PaddleWheel canoes the Hudson gorge, One Time (at low water) and no water or very little water in the Indian River. One Time and they manage to destroy a kayak and leave it in the river. Now paddlewheel is an expert on the Hudson River Gorge.
I've heard and read about the concerns of the warm summer release and the possible negative impact on fish. The only thing I can say is that I've never seen a belly up trout or other species floating in the river from heat exposure. There are enough springs and cold spots in the Hudson for the fish to hold over in. I would expect the biggest impact on the Indian River. Yet I've never seen any dead fish other than the ones caught by fishermen.
The rafting companies are all locally run and mostly locally owned. They take pride in their profession. They put together a great experience for people who do not have the means or skills to safely navigate a wild and wonderful place. The cost of a raft trip, let's say $80, is a bargain. All day in the wilderness with a professional guide, lunch on the river and then a steak dinner at the end! Raft company owners are not getting rich.
The outfitters have mediated the impact at Blue Ledges. Some companies lunch upstream at Virgin Falls, some at the Boreas, some at the top of Mile Long.
The outfitters have done what they can do to weed out a bad apple- yet no one on this board offers any positive comments. Completely negative- even for the men and woman who strive to do a good job and succeed.
There is a finite number of 'slots' for commercial customers. The town of Indian Lake collects a fee for each rafting customer that floats the river. As companies come and go those slots are sold and purchased. It is not the free for all that Paddlewheel suggest.
Does it get crowded at times? Sure but not every weekend or every scheduled release day. Paddlewheel isn't harping about the impact of derby day with all those yuppies and out-of towners ruining his race experience.
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Old 04-24-2011, 09:15 PM   #44
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I don't know...maybe spend more time in town when your're there..Get to know the people ...buy some arts and crafts...(lotta good stuff there)...

Just make sure the artsy stuff is locally made and not coming from China as some of it is. Always check for an artists signature whether it's a painting or some of the other creative item.
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Old 04-25-2011, 07:22 AM   #45
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I have "played " on the river most of my life and have dealt with tourists and made a fairly decent living off of them. I live on the river and clean up after the white water party every year.
Everyone has the right to make a living and enjoy the area but to think (IMO)that the use/overuse doesn't have a negative effect is like whistling past a graveyard.

In the end it won't directly effect me though as I have grown tired of the poor economy and the government regs and have retired and I'm in the process of selling and moving to Va to spend time teaching the grandkids all my bad habits.
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Old 04-25-2011, 08:32 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Riosacandaga View Post
I've heard and read about the concerns of the warm summer release and the possible negative impact on fish. The only thing I can say is that I've never seen a belly up trout or other species floating in the river from heat exposure. There are enough springs and cold spots in the Hudson for the fish to hold over in.
Wait, isn't this just the sort of anecdotal information you are criticizing others for? I'm not sure about the situation on these rivers, but on the Housatonic in NW CT after years of griping by fishermen about the impact of releases used by rafters flooding over the cool water refuges in the summer, the DEP finally studied the matter, and sure enough the fly fishermen were right. The releases were prohibited (it is now "run of the river") to the dismay of paddlers, but the river is much healthier.
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Old 04-25-2011, 08:39 AM   #47
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I have "played " on the river most of my life and have dealt with tourists and made a fairly decent living off of them. I live on the river and clean up after the white water party every year.
Everyone has the right to make a living and enjoy the area but to think (IMO)that the use/overuse doesn't have a negative effect is like whistling past a graveyard.
It's nice having someone involved and with a stake in the matter chiming in! Some seem to think that as long as a motor isn't involved, there can't possibly be any impact at any level of use.
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Old 04-25-2011, 09:45 AM   #48
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"THE EFFECT OF PULSED DISCHARGE EVENTS ON THERMAL REFUGIA
USE BY BROWN TROUT IN THERMALLY MARGINAL STREAMS"

by Bethany Ann Boisvert, August 2008
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Old 04-25-2011, 09:58 AM   #49
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"THE EFFECT OF PULSED DISCHARGE EVENTS ON THERMAL REFUGIA
USE BY BROWN TROUT IN THERMALLY MARGINAL STREAMS"

by Bethany Ann Boisvert, August 2008
Thanks. For others, here's the link - http://ny.water.usgs.gov/pubs/misc/BoisvertThesis.pdf

I only read the abstract, which at its conclusion stated:

Quote:
Our results showed that pulsed discharge events altered both the thermal characteristics of refuge areas at tributary confluences and behavioral thermoregulation by stocked brown trout. Although poor survival of these trout in the affected reaches may be due to severe summer temperatures regardless of recreational releases, the observed reduction in behavioral thermoregulation suggests that pulsed discharge events may impair the ability of coldwater fish to survive in regulated systems.
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Old 04-25-2011, 10:07 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Riosacandaga View Post
One time Val and Hawk hike into the gorge and see people pooping. One Time.
PaddleWheel canoes the Hudson gorge, One Time (at low water) and no water or very little water in the Indian River. One Time and they manage to destroy a kayak and leave it in the river. Now paddlewheel is an expert on the Hudson River Gorge.
I've heard and read about the concerns of the warm summer release and the possible negative impact on fish. The only thing I can say is that I've never seen a belly up trout or other species floating in the river from heat exposure. There are enough springs and cold spots in the Hudson for the fish to hold over in. I would expect the biggest impact on the Indian River. Yet I've never seen any dead fish other than the ones caught by fishermen.
The rafting companies are all locally run and mostly locally owned. They take pride in their profession. They put together a great experience for people who do not have the means or skills to safely navigate a wild and wonderful place. The cost of a raft trip, let's say $80, is a bargain. All day in the wilderness with a professional guide, lunch on the river and then a steak dinner at the end! Raft company owners are not getting rich.
The outfitters have mediated the impact at Blue Ledges. Some companies lunch upstream at Virgin Falls, some at the Boreas, some at the top of Mile Long.
The outfitters have done what they can do to weed out a bad apple- yet no one on this board offers any positive comments. Completely negative- even for the men and woman who strive to do a good job and succeed.
There is a finite number of 'slots' for commercial customers. The town of Indian Lake collects a fee for each rafting customer that floats the river. As companies come and go those slots are sold and purchased. It is not the free for all that Paddlewheel suggest.
Does it get crowded at times? Sure but not every weekend or every scheduled release day. Paddlewheel isn't harping about the impact of derby day with all those yuppies and out-of towners ruining his race experience.
Mike I know you and I understand and respect your feelings, however I have a couple of issues with your post.

In talking about the financial impact that the rafting has on the communities it's almost as if you are saying that there should be exceptions because of it or that they should be less accountable, In other words, "It's all about the money". I disagree with the principle. In fact because it is in many cases "about the money", then the rafting operators, the communities that profit from the rafting and the State that is promoting tourism AND collecting tax from the residents should be practicing due diligence to keep the areas as nice as possible in order to attract more participants who paddle, swim, backpack, etc.

What Kevin, Val and I saw on that particular day had been going on for quite a while, judging from the fecal matter that was all over the place. Also it was several different rafting outfits that were landing there, not just one.

It is inconceivable to me that none of these companies were aware of the impact that discharging all of these passengers to relieve themselves. And it seems from your statement that NOW they are doing something to "spread out" the impact.

The local communities and the state are also remiss if they are not requiring that there be some kind of arrangements made to deal with this problem. I would assume that the gorge on a given day gets as many rafters as many of the local and state parks and campgrounds get visitors. All of those places have facilities of some sort for dealing with human waste. If you paddle the upper Missouri river you are required to carry and use a portable waste system and then dispose of the contents in proper places. Why should rafting here be any different? I am quite sure that if this were occurring in a community park, there would be outrage.

And although I was only there once (and won't go back because of the condition), I have also been to many places in the west that have white water rafting and have processes in place to deal with the waste. Why should it be any different here?

It sounds almost as if they are doing something now because some of us have raised Hell about it.

After all this is not a situation where you have WR kayakers who are ecologically minded and who know how to "take care of their business" in a proper manner.

AND, like anything else, it's not always the majority of of a given set of people who are irresponsible, it's usually a small minority. However that minority is enough to mess it up for everyone else and bring a bad reputation to the rest.

Hawk
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Old 04-25-2011, 10:45 AM   #51
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Hawk,
Likewise, I respect your position. However if you re-read my post I explain the “slot” system as best as I can. I do NOT suggest that the number of commercial ‘slots’ be increased. I provided what I know to educate the readers that there are SOME controls.
The raft companies have been dividing up where they disembark for more than a few years. But, even if only ONE raft with nine people stopped at Blue Ledges and relieved themselves without taking proper care the impact would be huge and totally unacceptable. We discussed this in another thread and I pointed out then, that there are porta-potties at the put in. So the companies are trying. I also provided a link to my blog in support of an on the river system: http://inthedrainage.blogspot.com/2011/02/groover.html
I have paddled over 500 trips down through the gorge but now I go maybe a few times a year. I have not stopped at blue ledges in over a decade, so maybe next time I’m in there I will take a look for myself. Hopefully they have cleaned it up since your visit.
Hawk, you wrote: “I have also been to many places in the west that have white water rafting and have processes in place to deal with the waste. Why should it be any different here?” I never suggested it be otherwise and fully support a “carry it in, carry it out” to include fecal matter.
Mike
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Old 04-25-2011, 12:38 PM   #52
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My experience is that younger people seem to have less of a problem with crowded outdoor spaces...than I do....

I would just as soon stay outta Dodge & find quieter places to go which aren't nescesasarily within the blue line....

If it's nuts and crazy busy .....you will find me elsewhere...

That's why I don't do the high peaks or the Gorge anymore...

It's beyond my comprehension of things outdoors, why people would want to experience an outdoor adventure with 30 or more strangers ....or a constant intermingling with poeple, ...I can be friendly when I meet folks ...but I am mostly looking for some kind of solitude ...or/ within a small group...out in the middle of nowhere's....that is what I seek...that is what I love & look for when I venture in the outdoors.

Not my style.....never was & never will be....

Last edited by paddlewheel; 04-25-2011 at 12:54 PM..
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Old 05-26-2011, 06:18 PM   #53
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Pat Cunningham arraigned today

Pat Cunningham was arraigned today in Hamilton County Court and pleaded not guilty. Trial set for August 15. Adirondack Life today put the full story online. This is as much a story about DEC's shortcomings as it is Hudson River Rafting Company's: http://www.adirondacklife.com/index....sk=view&id=278
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Old 05-31-2011, 05:18 PM   #54
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Jackie was going to make a blueberry pie for Hawk but now that she realizes that her blueberry picking has a negative effect on things since she's a tourist visiting a blueberry 'farm' inside the blue line ... she can't bake Hawk a pie now.

so sad.

I, however, have no qualms about picking the blueberries so I will happily devour the pie on Hawk's behalf.
Just because you like blueberries and are willing to eat them doesn't mean that you get to eat all of them until there are no blueberries left for yourself or others.

Tourism can and has gone too far in plenty of places, resulting in ecological damage that will take years to repair. It is possible to "love a place to death."

We often decry society's habits at consuming natural resources in an unsustainable manner. Tourism also relies on natural resources, and even though it's not generally viewed as a "consumptive" use on those resources, that doesn't mean that tourism can't have a depleting effect nonetheless. True sustainability is only achieved when something is socially, economically, and ecologically sustainable. Just because tourism may readily provide for economic stability in our communities that are in wild areas doesn't mean that it is free of the responsibility of also protecting ecologic and social resources.

Last edited by DSettahr; 05-31-2011 at 05:30 PM..
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