Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Moose population dropping?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by montcalm View Post
    A good point, but the question is when this map was made and based on what? Generally these maps I see are based on current populations and estimates.

    The more interesting question would be what the moose population and range was before humans had a significant impact on the landscape. That may even precede the rise of the Iroquois nation in NYS.

    And would the Adirondacks continue to support moose population, even on the fringes, if it weren't for the forest preserve and better logging practices and of course, lack of hunting? It seems as though at the time the park was created, the moose population was not exactly thriving.

    What I tend to notice about that map is that it generally outlines the Boreal and Hemiboreal forests with some encroachment into Tundra. With the changing climate could come changes to these forest types and force the moose out of the southern reaches altogether. I don't know enough about their habitat requirements to understand what limits them from populating further south.
    I notice the map does not show the Island of NFLD as moose range. Moose are not indigenous to the island and were stocked there in the early 1900’s. Today it holds the largest moose population of any region in the world, around 100,000.
    And, most of the rock has been logged.

    In the books about the ADK trapper Nat Foster, who hunted and ran a trap line from the Mohawk Valley to the St Lawrence river in the late 1700’s - the early 1800’s,
    It only mentioned him shooting 1 or 2 moose. But he did shoot upwards to 100 deer per year, so I would guess there was never a large moose population in NY.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Bounder45 View Post
      I still don't consider poaching to be a widespread problem for NY Moose, and certainly not to the point where it is seriously impacting the overall population trend.
      Certainly not widespread, but I would think if it happened a couple times already, then it is certainly possible that it has happened a few times more than that without people getting caught. If that’s true then I think it can & would have an impact on the population by eliminating a few moose that otherwise might be healthy breeders. Anecdotal yes without any other hard evidence to back it up, but this is just a discussion, and it’s a sad reality that there are many people in this world who don’t care about laws & regulations and never get caught.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Tug Hill View Post
        I notice the map does not show the Island of NFLD as moose range. Moose are not indigenous to the island and were stocked there in the early 1900’s. Today it holds the largest moose population of any region in the world, around 100,000.
        I saw that but didn't mention it. The trans-Canada highway has a swath cut about 100' back from the pavement on each side so you can see the moose before they attempt suicide by motor vehicle. There are electric signs on the side of the road indicating the current number of collisions.
        The best, the most successful adventurer, is the one having the most fun.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Justin View Post
          Certainly not widespread, but I would think if it happened a couple times already, then it is certainly possible that it has happened a few times more than that without people getting caught. If that’s true then I think it can & would have an impact on the population by eliminating a few moose that otherwise might be healthy breeders. Anecdotal yes without any other hard evidence to back it up, but this is just a discussion, and it’s a sad reality that there are many people in this world who don’t care about laws & regulations and never get caught.
          Indeed this is true. In my area of the southern ADKs, there are many local residents who hunt from their backyards for deer specifically and use illegal baiting - and do it out of season.

          So those who refuse to believe this is happening have their collective heads in the sand.

          The deer population (because of it's size) may be able to sustain this sort of illegal hunting. A fragile, recovering moose population would be much more hard-hit.
          Ahh............Wilderness.......

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Bounder45 View Post
            From all the DEC highlights I've read, it certainly doesn't seem that Moose poaching is a widespread problem.

            And if no one, to include the DEC, knows the true extent of this supposed problem, then I'd say we're discussing a problem that no one can prove exists....which is a pointless endeavour.
            With the relatively small developing moose population, it may not need to be "a widespread problem" to impact growth of the herd.

            One particular case that I can identify occurred on route 29a where a severed moose head was found off the side of the road. Despite apparent widespread knowledge as to who was involved, the DEC could never prove a case against said person. DEC is not likely to talk about such cases since the likelihood of the person be identified and caught is generally very low. Problem swept under the rug............
            Ahh............Wilderness.......

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Tug Hill View Post
              I notice the map does not show the Island of NFLD as moose range. Moose are not indigenous to the island and were stocked there in the early 1900’s. Today it holds the largest moose population of any region in the world, around 100,000.
              And, most of the rock has been logged.

              In the books about the ADK trapper Nat Foster, who hunted and ran a trap line from the Mohawk Valley to the St Lawrence river in the late 1700’s - the early 1800’s,
              It only mentioned him shooting 1 or 2 moose. But he did shoot upwards to 100 deer per year, so I would guess there was never a large moose population in NY.
              Old hunter guide John Cheney shot something like 600 deer and 19 moose and he worked in the High Peaks area.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Justin View Post
                Certainly not widespread, but I would think if it happened a couple times already, then it is certainly possible that it has happened a few times more than that without people getting caught. If that’s true then I think it can & would have an impact on the population by eliminating a few moose that otherwise might be healthy breeders. Anecdotal yes without any other hard evidence to back it up, but this is just a discussion, and it’s a sad reality that there are many people in this world who don’t care about laws & regulations and never get caught.
                Originally posted by poconoron View Post
                Indeed this is true. In my area of the southern ADKs, there are many local residents who hunt from their backyards for deer specifically and use illegal baiting - and do it out of season.

                So those who refuse to believe this is happening have their collective heads in the sand.

                The deer population (because of it's size) may be able to sustain this sort of illegal hunting. A fragile, recovering moose population would be much more hard-hit.
                I think it makes more sense to wait and see what the DEC says on the current Moose population trend (and any contributing factors) before jumping to any premature conclusions.

                Poaching happens everywhere, including in North America to some degree. But we also have very robust hunter-based (and funded) conservation system in place here; poaching, generally-speaking, is not a serious threat to most of our wildlife populations, unlike other parts of the world. If the DEC has evidence that poaching is adversely affecting the Moose numbers here in NY, I’d expect them to note that in their survey and to put out requests for information on suspected infractions.

                People here are free to assume whatever they want, but we’re discussing assumptions, not hard facts. Maybe we can let this side-topic rest a bit while we wait for more information; I think some people here are trying to create a controversy out of what might ultimately be a negligible problem.
                Last edited by Bounder45; 03-01-2018, 05:10 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Thanks Bounder, fair enough.
                  You were the one that mention “there’s no evidence that it happened”, and I was only trying to point out that it did, and could quite possibly may have happened other times as well, especially on private land where the chances of getting caught are pretty slim. A little can cause a lot, and if no one talks about it, then it never happened I guess, and no need to bring it up. Ever watch that show North Woods Law? You seem to have a lot more faith in modern day mankind than I do.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Justin View Post
                    Thanks Bounder, fair enough.
                    You were the one that mention “there’s no evidence that it happened”, and I was only trying to point out that it did, and could quite possibly may have happened other times as well, especially on private land where the chances of getting caught are pretty slim. A little can cause a lot, and if no one talks about it, then it never happened I guess, and no need to bring it up. Ever watch that show North Woods Law? You seem to have a lot more faith in modern day mankind than I do.
                    Justin, my last comment about 'creating controversy wasn't directed at you; I apologize if it seemed like it was.

                    My earlier statement about Moose poaching was not well-phrased; I do acknowledge that people break the rules and that poaching does happen. However, I’ve seen no evidence that it is happening with enough frequency to have a meaningful impact on NY’s Moose population. If the DEC, or some other credible organization, presents evidence to the contrary, I might change my opinion.

                    The logistics of finding and harvesting a Moose in the ADK’s are not easy: the terrain is rugged; the roads are few; and word of any “big takes” normally gets around. So the idea that more than a few Moose are covertly being killed and butchered in the ADK’s on an annual basis seems far-fetched to me. That said, I don’t have complete faith in all of my fellow hunters; I admit that at least a few of them are unrepentant jerks who will try to break the rules and give the rest of us a bad name. However, I do believe in the conservation enforcement system (even if it is imperfect) and my fellow hunters and anglers who want to see wildlife thrive and/or managed appropriately. I do think that there are enough good people out there who will hold the bad ones accountable if/when they act up.

                    That doesn't mean we'll catch every single offender, but I do think there is intellectual buy-in from a strong majority of North America's hunting community when it comes to following the rules.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Good post, thanks man. Overall I think we agree.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Like usuals hunters get a undeserved bad rap. A couple of years ago a hunter shot a moose near Croghan, NY.. He claimed he miss ID it, sounds like BS to me. But his hunting companions, told him he needed to turn himself into the authorities, or they would and also they would kick him out of their hunting club. So he did turn himself in, and the justice system worked. So I believe that there are incidents of moose poaching in NY, but they very rare.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Tug Hill View Post
                          A couple of years ago a hunter shot a moose near Croghan, NY.. He claimed he miss ID it, sounds like BS to me. But his hunting companions, told him he needed to turn himself into the authorities, or they would and also they would kick him out of their hunting club. So he did turn himself in, and the justice system worked. So I believe that there are incidents of moose poaching in NY, but they very rare.
                          I’m thinking that must be the same incident that I linked in post #26...?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Around 1990 some guys shot a moose in the Black mt. area on Lake George. They were seen loading the head into one of their trucks at the trailhead. They were caught and convicted.

                            One or two years ago, a shot moose was found along the Tahawus Rd. No one was caught for that one.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by dundee View Post
                              One or two years ago, a shot moose was found along the Tahawus Rd. No one was caught for that one.
                              In 2014...
                              https://www.adirondackalmanack.com/2...oose-calf.html

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Justin View Post
                                Ok, almost four years ago. Time flies.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X