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  • #31
    All interesting commentary.
    But the fact remains that coyotes, coy dogs, whatever you name them are present in the AdK's.
    They predate on fawns as well as mature deer.
    Efforts in the western part of our country to limit their population failed.
    Jim

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    • #32
      Originally posted by producer View Post
      Some measure and significant are two different things. I would argue that 1% is insignificant. You clearly feel otherwise. And the numbers are similar for both sheep and cattle, so its also 1 percent of sheep. With approx 2.1 million cattle ranches in the us, thats less than 1/8 of farms affected. Like you said, wolf will be a wolf... they are supposed to kill ungulates. Of course like you are suggesting, we dont want them killing them off completely. Wildlife management is needed now, but it wasnt always that way.
      I'm not following your math there, especially your point on 1/8 of farms being affected. Predators accounted for 5% of all cattle losses for that 220k example, and accounted for 36% of all sheep losses for 2015 (which just seems to confirm that certain livestock are more vulnerable than others when it come to predators). I'm sure you could look up the stats for other types of livestock, but those numbers, especially for the sheep aren't insignificant. That and #'s only tell half the story...LGD's, fencing, range riders, fladry, trapping are just some of the measures that farmers/ranchers will use to deal with predator problems. All of these measures cost money and time to implement and maintain, which eats into their already thin profit margins. Not to mention the stress to both the livestock and farmers/ranchers themselves when incidents happen.

      I'm sure most of these men and women knew the hardships involved when they took up this lifestyle. But this notion held by some posters here that you can just put out an LGD or two, build your fence and not have to worry about predator issues is just plain naive. None of these management strategies are foolproof, especially as the local predators become more educated. Hunting is one of many management tools available. And it was in use long before European settlers came to North America (arguably without the long-term planning and scientific understanding that we have today).

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      • #33
        This just in;

        "Another study featured, “Cattle mortality on a predator friendly station in central Australia,” found that ending lethal control may in itself — even without implementing nonlethal methods — reduce livestock losses by simply enabling the predator’s social structure to stabilize.

        Not only are aggressive lethal controls ineffective, they have actually been found to increase livestock losses..."

        "A culture is no better than its woods." W.H. Auden

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        • #34
          I discourage the shooting of coyotes but I do believe hunting is an useful and necessary management tool.
          "A culture is no better than its woods." W.H. Auden

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          • #35
            Originally posted by geogymn View Post
            I discourage the shooting of coyotes but I do believe hunting is an useful and necessary management tool.
            In one sentence, you discourage shooting coyotes, in the next, you encourage hunting.
            Which is it???
            Coyotes are here to stay, efforts for controlling their population have been nonproductive.
            At one point, in NY State, there was a bounty paid.
            Now they're protected as a fur bearing animal.
            They're here to stay.
            Jim

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Hard Scrabble View Post
              In one sentence, you discourage shooting coyotes, in the next, you encourage hunting.
              Which is it???
              Coyotes are here to stay, efforts for controlling their population have been nonproductive.
              At one point, in NY State, there was a bounty paid.
              Now they're protected as a fur bearing animal.
              They're here to stay.
              Jim
              What I am saying is I like coyotes and I like the idea of coyotes. I want coyotes in the woods that I roam. But I don't begrudge others for hunting them, it is not my call on how they feel about it.
              I also think that hunting coyotes maintains man as a dominant species. Dominance induces fear. I know that we must cull the bold coyotes to ensure the survival of the species.
              If a coyote becomes too bold around my children it has to go. Hypocritical, I know, but that is the way it is.
              "A culture is no better than its woods." W.H. Auden

              Comment


              • #37
                "But this notion held by some posters here that you can just put out an LGD or two, build your fence and not have to worry about predator issues is just plain naive."

                I'm the naïve one? You're making a fool of yourself.

                I have actually raised sheep for 30 years. What have you done? My in laws were huge cattle drovers and producers. None of us lost livestock to a coyote attack. My in laws had trouble with domestics dogs running cattle. All we did with sheep was provide a safe area during lambing (that's a fence BTW)

                I did an online search of coyotes preying on livestock in New York State and found nothing. In fact SUNY Department of Environmental Science states free ranging domestic dogs are a far bigger problem.

                Here's one from NY State you should read:



                Hunting might be a "management tool" as you claim but it sure isn't a very effective one. More gobbledegook from those who feel a need to justify killing coyotes.

                Here's the best management tool....Leave them alone!
                Izaak Walton a great writer? He can't even spell COMPLETE.

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                • #38
                  "A culture is no better than its woods." W.H. Auden

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Gman View Post
                    I have actually raised sheep for 30 years. What have you done? My in laws were huge cattle drovers and producers. None of us lost livestock to a coyote attack. My in laws had trouble with domestics dogs running cattle. All we did with sheep was provide a safe area during lambing (that's a fence BTW)

                    I did an online search of coyotes preying on livestock in New York State and found nothing. In fact SUNY Department of Environmental Science states free ranging domestic dogs are a far bigger problem.
                    Well I guess the coyotes outside of your neck of the woods didn't get the memo. They account for most of the predator losses for just about every type of livestock.

                    They are also relatively new to NY and the northeast in general. So I wouldn't expect their impact to be the same here as it is elsewhere. I've spent quite a bit of time hunting and hiking both in agricultural lands and forests; I've never run into a free-ranging domestic dog (at least one that was truly feral and capable of preying on livestock). I've run into coyote, or have seen their sign, almost everywhere. Based on population numbers alone, I highly doubt free-ranging dogs are causing a bigger problem than coyote for livestock and farmers. In fact, I highly doubt a free-ranging domestic dog will survive long in the wild as coyote are inclined to kill such dogs.

                    As Jim said, they're here to stay. Regulated hunting and trapping isn't going to change that.

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                    • #40
                      Hey not my claim. I'm quoting your own State University. I guess they'd be some kind of authority. Here's the quote:

                      "Coyotes can be a significant problem to individual sheep-raisers and may occasionally kill young calves. Those who raise livestock should recognize that coyotes are a potential hazard and use guard dogs, fencing, pasture management and other practices that minimize opportunities for coyote depredation. Farmers who suffer loss or damage to livestock or pets are permitted to eliminate the “nuisance” coyotes. Uncontrolled domestic dogs are a much greater threat, responsible for losses to livestock far exceeding losses from coyotes."


                      And here's the link:

                      Articles on Resources, Habitat, Wildlife and the Natural World


                      Coyotes on the north shore of the St Lawrence are the same as the ones on the south side ( they don't need passports or green cards to cross the border) There are far more sheep on this side of the river.
                      Izaak Walton a great writer? He can't even spell COMPLETE.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Gman View Post
                        Hey not my claim. I'm quoting your own State University. I guess they'd be some kind of authority. Here's the quote:

                        "Coyotes can be a significant problem to individual sheep-raisers and may occasionally kill young calves. Those who raise livestock should recognize that coyotes are a potential hazard and use guard dogs, fencing, pasture management and other practices that minimize opportunities for coyote depredation. Farmers who suffer loss or damage to livestock or pets are permitted to eliminate the “nuisance” coyotes. Uncontrolled domestic dogs are a much greater threat, responsible for losses to livestock far exceeding losses from coyotes."


                        And here's the link:

                        Articles on Resources, Habitat, Wildlife and the Natural World

                        NY doesn't have a single state university in the traditional sense. It has a group of colleges and universities that are collectively part of the SUNY (State University of NY) network.

                        I can see what the text says on the website you referenced. Do you have links to the studies or raw data that prove this statement? Since the author is a professor, I'd expect there to be some underlying source or study to back up what he is saying.

                        That aside, this professor does seem to acknowledge that coyotes "can be a significant problem to individual sheep-raisers and may occasionally kill young calves," which is similar to what I've been saying from the beginning.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          An interesting conversation.
                          But we all know that coyotes predate on wild or domestic livestock, when the opportunity arises.
                          Jim

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Gman View Post
                            "But this notion held by some posters here that you can just put out an LGD or two, build your fence and not have to worry about predator issues is just plain naive."

                            I'm the naïve one? You're making a fool of yourself.

                            I have actually raised sheep for 30 years. What have you done? My in laws were huge cattle drovers and producers. None of us lost livestock to a coyote attack. My in laws had trouble with domestics dogs running cattle. All we did with sheep was provide a safe area during lambing (that's a fence BTW)

                            I did an online search of coyotes preying on livestock in New York State and found nothing. In fact SUNY Department of Environmental Science states free ranging domestic dogs are a far bigger problem.

                            Here's one from NY State you should read:



                            Hunting might be a "management tool" as you claim but it sure isn't a very effective one. More gobbledegook from those who feel a need to justify killing coyotes.

                            Here's the best management tool....Leave them alone!
                            Cattle Drovers??? In NY State???
                            Sorry!
                            Jim

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Ontario, lots of them. They are wholesale buyers and sellers of livestock. Many years ago cattle were driven to market in a traditional sense, on foot, horse etc. Today they are transported by truck, rail etc.. Most small local sales barns are gone now. Livestock are shipped to sales in bigger centres or sold directly to packers.
                              Izaak Walton a great writer? He can't even spell COMPLETE.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Gman View Post
                                Ontario, lots of them. They are wholesale buyers and sellers of livestock. Many years ago cattle were driven to market in a traditional sense, on foot, horse etc. Today they are transported by truck, rail etc.. Most small local sales barns are gone now. Livestock are shipped to sales in bigger centres or sold directly to packers.
                                I would hardly call modern buyers and sellers of livestock "Drovers".
                                The term brings memories of the long ago cattle drives when ranchers herded their cattle to market in western Canada and the US.
                                Ontario could not compete with the western provinces in beef cattle production due to the topography.
                                Ontario, for the most part is a dairy industry.
                                New Liskiard is a point that i would make. There's a huge statue of a dairy cow on the roadside when you approach from the south.
                                Jim
                                Last edited by Hard Scrabble; 02-25-2017, 04:32 PM.

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