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  • #16
    There are only a few hundred pure Eastern Wolves in Ontario where there has been extensive DNA research on them via Trent University. The numbers in Quebec are not known. There are Eastern Wolves in the deciduous forests of the Upper Ottawa and Gatineau. Gray Wolves in the rest and Hybrids south of the St. Lawrence.

    As for wolves making it to The ADKs on there own?

    Each time I descend out of the Park on 458 near St Regis Falls on a clear day I look north and see a blue line of hills (Montebello region of Quebec). There are packs of real wolves in those hills.
    Izaak Walton a great writer? He can't even spell COMPLETE.

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    • #17
      "My statements are opinions for sure, though I have no intention of writing a book. But alluding back to our previous discussion on cougar and coyote expansion, I prefer to base my opinion on what is probable rather than what is possible. Yes, it's possible for wolves to naturally move back into the ADK's, but given all of the natural and man-made obstacles in their way, and given how much wilderness there is in the northern parts of Ontario and Montreal (much of it with very little human presence), it just doesn't seem probable."

      This statement makes good sense to me. It is well written and succinct. Thank you.
      Never Argue With An Idiot. They Will Drag You Down To Their Level And Beat You With Experience.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by dundee View Post
        Brainworm for one reason.
        Interesting.


        The building that houses NRRI today was built as an air defense command center during the Cold War.
        Never Argue With An Idiot. They Will Drag You Down To Their Level And Beat You With Experience.

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        • #19
          Thinking about buying this so I can have a place to ride my quad and maybe start a new club. Six square miles of forest to explore. Looks like a great place to raise Algonquin Wolves to release in the forest. Think I'll call Glen to see if he is interested. http://www.fountainsland.com/propertyDesc.aspx?Id=454
          Never Argue With An Idiot. They Will Drag You Down To Their Level And Beat You With Experience.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Gman View Post
            This population of Eastern Wolves is all that is left of the original wolf of the North Eastern US. Ironically it was not native to Alonquin Park. It ended up there as a last refuge from human persecution and as the whitetail migrated north. Algonquin is turning back into moose country. Deer do not over winter anymore in the Park.

            Again the species either adapts, moves south with the whitetail or becomes completely swallowed up cross breeding with coyotes.

            People have to decide is something unique like this worth preserving? Or is a Gray, Eastern or Hybrid all the same thing?
            Until recently, wasn't the eastern wolf considered a subspecies of the gray wolf?

            I don't know why the US Fish and Wildlife Service ultimately decided to reclassify it as a separate species; their natural range overlaps with that of the gray wolf and they frequently breed together. Given time, the two species will likely continue to co-mingle and exchange their genes with one another.

            Personally I don't see the need to treat them as separate species; the few differences there are in terms of size and appearance are very normal for species with regional variations (like cougar, black bear, brown bear, ect.).

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Bounder45 View Post
              Until recently, wasn't the eastern wolf considered a subspecies of the gray wolf?

              I don't know why the US Fish and Wildlife Service ultimately decided to reclassify it as a separate species; their natural range overlaps with that of the gray wolf and they frequently breed together. Given time, the two species will likely continue to co-mingle and exchange their genes with one another.

              Personally I don't see the need to treat them as separate species; the few differences there are in terms of size and appearance are very normal for species with regional variations (like cougar, black bear, brown bear, ect.).

              The common ancestor of Wolves in Eurasia came to North America tens of thousands of years ago. Those evolved into the Coyote and Eastern Wolf. Much later what we call the Gray Wolf that evolved in Eurasia came to North America.

              I believe the confusion to the relationship of the two wolves stems from the common ancestor in Eurasia.

              If the pack structure and hierarchy are somewhat stable there is very little hybridization. Hunting undermines the pack structure. A bigger problem in the east where packs are much smaller. If one or both alphas are taken out there may not be another member in place to assume that role.
              Izaak Walton a great writer? He can't even spell COMPLETE.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Gman View Post
                The common ancestor of Wolves in Eurasia came to North America tens of thousands of years ago. Those evolved into the Coyote and Eastern Wolf. Much later what we call the Gray Wolf that evolved in Eurasia came to North America.

                I believe the confusion to the relationship of the two wolves stems from the common ancestor in Eurasia.
                The gray wolf and eastern wolf have been cohabiting in North America for how long now? Tens of thousands of years at least, right? There has simply been far too much breeding and genetic exchange to make the argument that this modern eastern wolf is somehow genetically independent and separate from the overall gray wolf family. I think the reason for the FWS' separate species classification of the 'eastern' wolf was more to appease certain political interests more than anything else.

                There are examples of wolf populations becoming genetically isolated from the gray wolf and essentially evolving into their own species (Red Wolf and Mexican Wolf). The wolf populations of Canada and Alaska aren't isolated (at least not to that same degree) and will continue to breed and exchange genes (which in my mind rules out any argument for separate classifications). What variations there are between say a wolf living in Algonquin Provincial Park and one in Denali National Park are no more abnormal than the differences you'd see in a Maine black bear and an Alaskan one.

                Originally posted by Gman View Post
                If the pack structure and hierarchy are somewhat stable there is very little hybridization. Hunting undermines the pack structure. A bigger problem in the east where packs are much smaller. If one or both alphas are taken out there may not be another member in place to assume that role.
                Hunting can alter pack structure for sure, though so too do natural causes, sickness, and pack fights. Regulated hunting is also a valuable tool which, when used in coordination with other conservation strategies, can help to control wolf predation (on livestock and native species). Not to mention that the fee and tax revenue generated from hunting wolves, as well as other species, goes right back into funding for conservation and wildlife management.

                If the pro-wolf groups truly want to see the continued expansion of the wolf population, they'll have to at least acknowledge that hunting will play a role in that overall conservation effort, even if they don't outright support such an activity.

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                • #23
                  No the Eastern Wolf is genetically different. That's not a hypothesis but fact.

                  Nothing political about it. Has nothing to do with US politics. So far any protection issues of Eastern Wolves are Province of Ontario issues. Although it is almost a certainty the Eastern Wolf of Algonquin was the same wolf of the Adirondacks.

                  An Eastern Wolf is not a genetically isolated Gray Wolf. It is seperate by tens of thousands of years.

                  There a 3 seperate intact populations of Eastern Wolves. There is one common denomitor...all three reside in zones that do not allow hunting of wolves. Furthermore 100,000 people each year attend Algonquin Wolf howls. The money generated from Algonquin wolf tourism far exceeds the nickel and dimes spent by hunters.

                  In closing think about 50 years in the future. Melting of the Arctic Ocean has pushed Polar Bears onto land where they encounter Grizzly Bears moving north because of global warming. The Polar Bears face gene swamping by Grizzlies. Within 20 years no pure Polar Bears exist...only hybrids.
                  Last edited by Gman; 11-23-2016, 12:15 PM.
                  Izaak Walton a great writer? He can't even spell COMPLETE.

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                  • #24
                    I recently read (might have been E O Wilson's book, The Diversity of Life) that if two populations become geographically separated and can thus not interbreed they can be considered as separate species. Obviously, there must be more to it than mere separation. I'll have to go back to the chapter on speciation and read it again.

                    OTOH, I understand that domestic dogs can breed with wolves (well, maybe not chihuahuas) so perhaps the defining rule - interbreeding and producing viable offspring is too limiting. Evidence in our genome suggests humans interbred with Neanderthals but no one would call us the same species. Unless our "Neanderthal genes" were acquired from a common ancestor and retained.

                    Sorry for the thread drift.
                    Last edited by Neil; 11-23-2016, 01:30 PM.
                    The best, the most successful adventurer, is the one having the most fun.

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                    • #25
                      Neil,

                      Offending comment removed.

                      Like a lot of men where I grew up my father kept hounds. On winter Saturday mornings gangs would hunt wolves. They were actually hybrids. From the time I was old enough to tag along I went too and shot quite a few myself and then I stopped hunting altogether.

                      I have seen some things done that were awful. The same stuff still goes on. My father is almost 90 and still goes. He tries not to tell me anything because he knows how I feel but once in a while he slips.
                      Last edited by Gman; 11-23-2016, 12:20 PM.
                      Izaak Walton a great writer? He can't even spell COMPLETE.

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                      • #26
                        [QUOTE=Gman;253575]... Although it is almost a certainty the Eastern Wolf of Algonquin was the same wolf of the Adirondacks.QUOTE]

                        I have no idea where I read this, it was several years ago and I can't prove a darn thing, but this article said that ADK wolves *MAY* have the Red Wolf that now resides in some of our southern states.

                        If nothing else, it's an interesting idea.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Gman View Post
                          No the Eastern Wolf is genetically different. That's not a hypothesis but fact.

                          Nothing political about it. Has nothing to do with US politics. So far any protection issues of Eastern Wolves are Province of Ontario issues. Although it is almost a certainty the Eastern Wolf of Algonquin was the same wolf of the Adirondacks.
                          The influence of politics on the FWS' decision is purely speculation on my part, so take it or leave it at that. Genetically-speaking, the eastern wolf is no doubt different from the gray wolf of western Canada and Alaska...so too is a Maine black bear and an Alaskan one. The real reason I don't see a point in treating them as separate species (I think a subspecies relationship makes far more sense) is because the populations continue to intermingle and breed with one another, as they have for tens of thousands of years, to the point where there is far too much gray area (no pun intended) to indicate decisive differences between the two....the only real difference that I have read about (other than size) is that the far eastern wolf (the ones in Algonquin) will actually breed with coyote from time to time, whereas the wolves further west will normally kill them on sight (which is why coyotes and wolves normally don't cohabit the same regions).

                          I think making the eastern wolf a separate species just muddy's the waters and makes managing them more complicated than it needs to be, but that's just my 2 cents.

                          Originally posted by Gman View Post
                          An Eastern Wolf is not a genetically isolated Gray Wolf. It is seperate by tens of thousands of years.
                          I know that the eastern wolf is not genetically isolated...that was the point I made to support my argument that the gray and eastern wolf really aren't distinct species in the genetic sense.

                          Originally posted by Gman View Post
                          There a 3 seperate intact populations of Eastern Wolves. There is one common denomitor...all three reside in zones that do not allow hunting of wolves. Furthermore 100,000 people each year attend Algonquin Wolf howls. The money generated from Algonquin wolf tourism far exceeds the nickel and dimes spent by hunters.
                          Well I truly believe that a holistic conservation effort includes a variety of efforts: fund-raising; outdoor education/awareness; camping; wildlife viewing; and, yes, hunting. I don't think one effort needs to be used to the exclusion of another; rather I think they can be utilized in coordination with one another. So I'm glad that there are many people gathering in Algonquin to hear the wolves howl. The "nickle and dime" contribution made by hunters which you referred to adds up to hundreds of Millions of dollars (Billions by some estimates) every year...not only is that contribution significant, but it far outpaces any fiscal contributions made by non-hunting conservation groups. I don't say that to deride what groups like the ADK Mountain Club and the Sierra Club provide, because they do their fair share as well, but rather to illustrate that hunters and anglers are a tremendous part of the 'conservation' pie. Groups like Rocky Mountain Elk and Ducks Unlimited have also gone above and beyond to fight for and set up protections for lands to ensure that certain species get the habitat that they need.

                          Also keep in mind that wolves have been hunted in Alaska and western Canada for quite some time now, and despite that their numbers there have continued to grow over the years. Regulated hunting isn't focused on eliminating a species, but rather managing it for the long term.


                          Originally posted by Gman View Post
                          In closing think about 50 years in the future. Melting of the Arctic Ocean has pushed Polar Bears onto land where they encounter Grizzly Bears moving north because of global warming. The Polar Bears face gene swamping by Grizzlies. Within 20 years no pure Polar Bears exist...only hybrids.
                          I don't know about that. Polar bears and Brown bear might be swapping genes from time to time, but that's not nearly as common as the eastern wolves and western wolves breeding. Also the differences between them are pretty set in stone at this point; that's not something that is going to change within 20 years...that's too short of a timeframe to begin with.
                          Last edited by Bounder45; 11-23-2016, 10:53 PM.

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                          • #28
                            Mr Bounder,

                            No doubt hunters contribute a lot towards conservation but its not going into wolf conservation. So, whatever contributions hunters make to wildlife conservation is a moot point in this debate because none of that money is finding its way to protecting Eastern Wolves.

                            Now there is an outfitter just outside the Algonquin protected zone who offers guided hunts for wolves but he's only had one guest in last 4 years to hunt wolves. No, the typical hunter of THESE wolves is a local with a $25 license, a second hand rifle and a box of ammo he bought at Canadian Tire 5 years ago.

                            Second, wolf management in Alaska and Western Canada have nothing to do with this. It's sort of like comparing the management of moose populations of Alaska and the Adirondacks.

                            Anyway, this is an Adirondack Board so none of this means anything to NY residents and those who love the ADK's unless you might someday want wolves back. Just wanted you all to know they were holding they're own in case you do. Or/And if they got a some more love up here you might get them back whether you wanted them or not.

                            Here's some links you or others might enjoy.













                            Ontario’s eastern wolves are a species of Special Concern. Scientists estimate that there are fewer than 500 individuals left, so why are they not better protected?










                            Last edited by Gman; 11-24-2016, 02:43 AM.
                            Izaak Walton a great writer? He can't even spell COMPLETE.

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                            • #29
                              [QUOTE=dundee;253601]
                              Originally posted by Gman View Post
                              ... Although it is almost a certainty the Eastern Wolf of Algonquin was the same wolf of the Adirondacks.QUOTE]

                              I have no idea where I read this, it was several years ago and I can't prove a darn thing, but this article said that ADK wolves *MAY* have the Red Wolf that now resides in some of our southern states.

                              If nothing else, it's an interesting idea.
                              I believe the Eastern Wolf and Red Wolf are genetically the same thing. They follow Bergmanns Rule in that animals in colder parts of their range are larger than those in warmer and southerly limits of their rage. The Eastern Wolves in Algonquin are darker in colour and have more colour variation too.
                              Izaak Walton a great writer? He can't even spell COMPLETE.

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                              • #30
                                A lot of useful information here.Thanks for sharing

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