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  • #31
    What immortal hand or eye,

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Gman View Post
      Mr Bounder,

      No doubt hunters contribute a lot towards conservation but its not going into wolf conservation. So, whatever contributions hunters make to wildlife conservation is a moot point in this debate because none of that money is finding its way to protecting Eastern Wolves.

      Now there is an outfitter just outside the Algonquin protected zone who offers guided hunts for wolves but he's only had one guest in last 4 years to hunt wolves. No, the typical hunter of THESE wolves is a local with a $25 license, a second hand rifle and a box of ammo he bought at Canadian Tire 5 years ago.
      The whole point behind my view is that eastern wolves aren't really all that different from western ones and that wolves in general don't really need protection in most areas they currently inhabit, and certainly not in Canada (at least central Ontario and west of there). The various Canadian provinces (which have resident wolf populations) are managing them appropriately, which does entail some amount of hunting and culling. Their numbers and range have grown and, given time, will continue to grow.

      As for how much hunting revenue is going towards protecting those wolves specifically located in Ontario, I couldn't tell you that since I'm not as familiar with Canada's hunting permitting procedures. But if average-joe hunters are paying $25 per license, my guess is that at least some of that money is going towards wolf-related conservation. My point on hunter-related revenue was more generically US-focused to show that hunting fees and revenue can go back towards helping a certain species.


      Originally posted by Gman View Post
      Second, wolf management in Alaska and Western Canada have nothing to do with this. It's sort of like comparing the management of moose populations of Alaska and the Adirondacks.
      Well if and when wolves make their way back into the eastern parts of Canada, and possibly parts of the northeastern US, those management plans currently used out west will likely be very relevant to how they are managed here in the east. Like I said, if people truly want wolves to come back in established, breeding populations, they're going to have to accept that there will be hunting as part of their management, just like it is for any species once it becomes well established.

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      • #33
        According to the US Fish and Wildlife service and the Michigan DNR we have both eastern and gray wolves in Michigan. We do not have hunting of any wolves, because a wise US District judge determined that since there were no wolves in the suburbs of Detroit, the wolf still must be endangered so an injunction was issued to stop any hunting. However I believe there is some illegal control of wolves that is ongoing. I have heard too many yoopers speak of it for some control measures not to be occurring.
        As far as money generated by wolf calls. I believe national parks offer tourist opportunities that do not happen outside of those areas. Deer hunting in the UP is poor since the boom in the wolf population. I know of few guys that do not go to the UP to run white rabbits. They lost a few good beagles, and decided that the running in the northern lower peninsula was just fine. No need to loose dogs to wolves. I don't think there has been dollar one that has been exchanged for wolf tourism.
        I do not think it is official, I believe wolves documented in the lower peninsula are considered transient. I also believe in another ten years we will have a wolf population in the northern lower peninsula. We have cougars in the UP.
        The point being in my lifetime, I have seen a real expansion of large predator ranges.
        I can't think of an animal more politicized than the wolf. I don't mind being in wild places. I am less fond of being in places with wild carnivores that have not been hunted in generations. I prefer large carnivores to have reason to fear me also. Animals that aren't hunted do not have the same fear of man. I have read there are more cougars in Utah than California, but there have been deaths by cougars in California and not Utah. I think the fact cougars are pursued with hounds is the differential in that equation.
        I really do hope the wolf returns to the Adirondacks. I also hope that states have the right to mange them within the state border before you folks have to deal with wolves.

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        • #34
          Gman said, "The money generated from Algonquin wolf tourism far exceeds the nickel and dimes spent by hunters."

          Just to make things clear , hunters spend more than nickels and dimes. If you can show me that your people spend more than this I'll stand corrected, the following figures are from the Canadian Tourism Commission for the Province of Ontario,


          Ontario:
          According to the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters, hunting has become an important industry, part of Canada’s resource-based economy. In 2000, the net economic benefits associated with recreational hunting in Ontario represented over $1.5 billion in economic activity. It employed approximately 20,000 people, with many jobs away from the city. Federal, provincial, and municipal governments collected an additional $140 million directly as a result of hunters’ expenditures.
          • Canadian hunters spent about $1.2 billion a year on hunting trips, and paid $70 million for hunting licenses. • Hunting and fishing license sales represented approximately 70% of the total operating budget of the Ontario Ministry of natural Resources.
          Sport Fishing and Game Hunting in Canada - An Assessment on the Potential International Tourism Opportunity
          6
          • Ontario’s hunting industry generated more wealth than Ontario’s television and film production industry ($1.4 billion in 2000).


          Now that being aired out , I don't should artificially introduce wolves in the Adirondacks, If they were to show up naturally they should of course be protected.

          I pack of wolves in the High Peaks might solve some of the overcrowding issues there.

          John M
          Because It's There, and it may not be tomorrow

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          • #35
            The discussion regarding the different species of wolves to me is academic. What's the diff from an Adirondack perspective? The biggest one is that if a group of wolves is classified as a unique species, then it probably is going to garner special protection and resources. I agree with the sentiment already expressed that the A2A corridor allows for possible expansion of range, but not probable. The possibility would exist even without the corridor. Seems to me in some cases that we wish to thwart evolution of some species in a drastically changing world. Are we all for forever wild unless it means letting species evolve? Just some food for thought.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Connecticut Yankee View Post
              Gman said, "The money generated from Algonquin wolf tourism far exceeds the nickel and dimes spent by hunters."

              Just to make things clear , hunters spend more than nickels and dimes. If you can show me that your people spend more than this I'll stand corrected, the following figures are from the Canadian Tourism Commission for the Province of Ontario,


              Ontario:
              According to the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters, hunting has become an important industry, part of Canada’s resource-based economy. In 2000, the net economic benefits associated with recreational hunting in Ontario represented over $1.5 billion in economic activity. It employed approximately 20,000 people, with many jobs away from the city. Federal, provincial, and municipal governments collected an additional $140 million directly as a result of hunters’ expenditures.
              • Canadian hunters spent about $1.2 billion a year on hunting trips, and paid $70 million for hunting licenses. • Hunting and fishing license sales represented approximately 70% of the total operating budget of the Ontario Ministry of natural Resources.
              Sport Fishing and Game Hunting in Canada - An Assessment on the Potential International Tourism Opportunity
              6
              • Ontario’s hunting industry generated more wealth than Ontario’s television and film production industry ($1.4 billion in 2000).


              Now that being aired out , I don't should artificially introduce wolves in the Adirondacks, If they were to show up naturally they should of course be protected.

              I pack of wolves in the High Peaks might solve some of the overcrowding issues there.

              John M
              I realize I was not being clear. I was speaking specifically the amount of money generated by wolf hunting, more so the region south of Lake Nippissing / French River and more specifically the area on the south side of Algonquin where there is some wolf tourism and it is this area where the wolves are most vulnerable and it where these Eastern Wolves are found.

              The wolf hunting that occurs doesn't generate much income as it mostly local guys out on a Saturday morning.

              I don't have issues with wolf hunting in Northern Ontario. The population of Grey Wolves is among the largest in the world and its the outfitters who generate the real money from hunting and it is a big part of the local economy of northern communities.

              I used to think wolves could re colonize the Adirondacks on their own but don't believe that now. No doubt you would get some wanderers but you need whole intact packs.
              Izaak Walton a great writer? He can't even spell COMPLETE.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by EagleCrag View Post
                The discussion regarding the different species of wolves to me is academic. What's the diff from an Adirondack perspective? The biggest one is that if a group of wolves is classified as a unique species, then it probably is going to garner special protection and resources. I agree with the sentiment already expressed that the A2A corridor allows for possible expansion of range, but not probable. The possibility would exist even without the corridor. Seems to me in some cases that we wish to thwart evolution of some species in a drastically changing world. Are we all for forever wild unless it means letting species evolve? Just some food for thought.
                I believe the species of wolf is important. Why introduce a wolf that is not native just for sake of having wolves. You'd be better off with the hybrids. The Eastern Wolf was the native wolf of the Adirondacks. It would need special attention as there are probably less than 500 that have not hybridized left in the wild.

                They don't form large packs and only the alpha pair breed. They are apex predators of deer whereas the hybrid is a generalist. The Adirondacks hybrid population is much larger than the potential Eastern Wolf population.

                A pure Eastern Wolf prefers large forested areas unlike hybrids which do better in open country. It is a beautiful animal with longer legs than a hybrid, square snout but smaller in the body and head than a Grey Wolf.

                Izaak Walton a great writer? He can't even spell COMPLETE.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Gman View Post
                  I believe the species of wolf is important. Why introduce a wolf that is not native just for sake of having wolves. You'd be better off with the hybrids. The Eastern Wolf was the native wolf of the Adirondacks. It would need special attention as there are probably less than 500 that have not hybridized left in the wild.

                  They don't form large packs and only the alpha pair breed. They are apex predators of deer whereas the hybrid is a generalist. The Adirondacks hybrid population is much larger than the potential Eastern Wolf population.

                  A pure Eastern Wolf prefers large forested areas unlike hybrids which do better in open country. It is a beautiful animal with longer legs than a hybrid, square snout but smaller in the body and head than a Grey Wolf.

                  http://wolf.nrdpfc.ca/easternwolf.htm
                  And just FYI, this concept of eastern wolves vs western wolves being 2 separate and distinct species is by no means settled. There are scientific opinions out there that the eastern wolf is nothing more than a hybridization of coyotes and western (gray) wolves:
                  https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/2...m.facebook.com

                  This is why I brought up the issue of the US Fish and Wildlife classifying the eastern wolf separately may have had political motivations; because if you create a separate species it then becomes easier to assign separate funding, studies, efforts and protections over what is already assigned to the wolf population as a whole.

                  And as for wolves making their way back into the ADK's, I'll expect to see cougar make their way back in here before I'll expect to see any wolves.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    That study reeks of political motivation to head off the de-listing of Grey Wolves. The Eastern wolf sample used was from only 2 animals that came from an area where hybridization is common. They never went into the field to study and sample them! I would defer to researchers here in Ontario who have sampled hundreds of animals and spent countless hours in the field studying them.
                    Izaak Walton a great writer? He can't even spell COMPLETE.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Gman View Post
                      That study reeks of political motivation to head off the de-listing of Grey Wolves. The Eastern wolf sample used was from only 2 animals that came from an area where hybridization is common. They never went into the field to study and sample them! I would defer to researchers here in Ontario who have sampled hundreds of animals and spent countless hours in the field studying them.
                      That seems like a pretty arbitrary dismissal of an academic and peer-reviewed journal article.

                      From reading the news article, it seems these researches have been taking DNA samples from wolves all over North America and the world:
                      Bridgett M. vonHoldt of Princeton University and her colleagues sequenced the genomes of 12 gray wolves, six Eastern wolves, three red wolves and three coyotes, as well as the genomes of dogs and wolves from Asia.
                      The article mentions specifically that 2 of the "eastern" wolves were from the Algonquin Provincial Park.

                      And it seems there are additional studies which are using larger sample populations:
                      Despite her concerns, Dr. Rutledge joined Dr. vonHoldt’s lab as a research associate last year to participate in a new study on wolves, called the Canine Ancestry Project. The researchers are pooling their samples of DNA to study up to 100 wolves, coyotes and dogs from every state in the continental United States, as well as in Canadian provinces.
                      If you have links to studies which offer countering views, please share them.

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                      • #41
                        That the ancestor of the coyote and eastern wolf arrived in North America tens of thousands of years before the grey wolf is beyond dispute. After that did DNA get mixed somewhere in the past 10000 years? That is quite possible. That does not dismiss that a wolf evolved seperately in the eastern forests of North America. That wolf is different from grey wolves and hybrids. This lady sampled 2 wolves from Algonqin. Canadian researchers have sampled hundreds and have been studying Algonquin wolves for 75 years.
                        Izaak Walton a great writer? He can't even spell COMPLETE.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Gman View Post
                          That the ancestor of the coyote and eastern wolf arrived in North America tens of thousands of years before the grey wolf is beyond dispute. After that did DNA get mixed somewhere in the past 10000 years? That is quite possible. That does not dismiss that a wolf evolved seperately in the eastern forests of North America. That wolf is different from grey wolves and hybrids.
                          There is very little in the scientific community that is 100% beyond dispute. Theories and understanding frequently change as new information is gathered.

                          But I am interested in reading more about the sources that are informing your opinions. Can you provide some links or references?

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                          • #43
                            There was a great "Nature" show aired on PBS a few years back about this exact topic. It explained a lot with good scientific evidence from DNA. They re-broadcast from time to time.
                            Exploring the US one mountain at a time.

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                            • #44
                              Get this book.



                              Tons of scientific information with comparisons between Algonquin Wolves, hybrids just outside Algonquin (Frontenac Arch) and Eastern Coyotes in the Adirondacks:



                              Also here is great information about possible wolf movement between Ontario and the Adirondacks

                              Izaak Walton a great writer? He can't even spell COMPLETE.

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                              • #45
                                Interesting article about reintroduced wolves out west, in the latest issue of Fur, Fish and Game.

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